Labor Unions in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-04-27
Guests: J.N. Musto (Executive Director, UHPA); Tony Rutledge (Financial Secretary, HERE Local 5); Bill Puette (Director, UH Center for Labor Education and Research)
Duration: 1:08:47

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show, and this is a special one-hour call-in version. Our program regularly airs Saturday mornings at 9:00 on this station, and then again, Sunday mornings at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7. Hawaii Public Radio recently installed equipment that allows listeners to call in their questions and comments. It's easy to participate. All you have to do is call 955-8821. We ask that you give our producer your first name and the part of the state you're calling from. Again, the number is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. Well, today we're going to be talking about unions in Hawaii and our two guests here in the studio are J.N. Musto, who is the executive director of the University of Hawaii Professional Assembly, and Tony Rutledge, who is the president of Unity House and financial secretary and treasurer of local five of the Hotel Workers union. Welcome, gentlemen.
[0:00:58] Tony Rutledge: Thank you, Randy. How are you?
[0:00:59] J.N. Musto: Hi Randy, how are you?
[0:01:00] Randall Roth: J.N., why don't you get us started by just telling us a little bit about unionism here in Hawaii? Is it unique or is it pretty much like unionism in any state in the United States?
[0:01:10] J.N. Musto: There is no such thing as something that's not unique in Hawaii. All of Hawaii is unique, which makes it a wonderful place and it makes everything we do wonderful, including our unionism. It has a very unique history, very unique background. My estimation, it's been probably one of the most significant social forces to move this state beyond its colonial plantation mentality into a place which is really envied by people around the world, something I think we tend to forget.
[0:01:45] Randall Roth: Are unions stronger in Hawaii today than they are in most other places in the United States?
[0:01:51] J.N. Musto: I don't no question about it in my mind. There's no question about it.
[0:01:55] Randall Roth: And is that because of the history, or is it because of the laws here in Hawaii, or is there some other explanation why it's stronger here?
[0:02:02] J.N. Musto: In my estimation, it's because of the history and it's because of the people, and how we've approached it. The laws have always trailed behind. The laws by the way, whether it's the National Labor Relations Act or Chapter 89 in the public sector here, by and large, were passed to restrict the activities of unions, not to promote them. And that's something I think people tend to forget.
[0:02:26] Randall Roth: Also despite the laws here in Hawaii, you would say unionism has thrived relative to other places.
[0:02:32] J.N. Musto: Absolutely.
[0:02:33] Randall Roth: Tony, welcome. Do you have anything to add to that in terms of the historical context of this?
[0:02:38] Tony Rutledge: Well, I think J.N. said it pretty well. It's because of the history and the upbringing of the people and the struggles that they had in the past, and what they taught their children which is the second and third generation coming up now and we are the ones basically that played a major part in trying to liberalize some of the laws in this state and I think we've become a bit of an envy of a lot of other states where in some areas they got the right to work so they're very limited in what they can do and that's so it's a it's a wrong kind of name for something that should mean something positive but really right to work is something very negative against workers.
[0:03:19] Tony Rutledge: They use the title to make it seem like that's what they want, but in effect they take all rights and and all all democratic processes out of the labor movement and that's not what we need here in this state. We've been very progressive. We're a little short on funds right now, but I'm sure we'll find some ways and means to make that up to take care of the worker's needs and wants.
[0:03:40] Randall Roth: Now Tony, when you say they do this and they want that, who who are you referring to?
[0:03:45] Tony Rutledge: I guess it's an organized group nationally called the Right to Work Committee or whatever and they go from state to state trying to change the laws around and make it more difficult for unions to gain strength in the bargaining table by weakening their efforts for majority and a majority rule situation. So, something we watch and our unions don't normally get too involved in the politics. We just try to protect ourselves when something comes up, and then we we got to get involved. But we've left it to the experts, the public workers, and they've done a great job for the state of Hawaii so far.
[0:04:21] Randall Roth: Speaking of public workers, I'm sure everyone realizes that the HGEA is out on strike right now, and we tried very hard to have Russell Okata or somebody from that particular union with us today, but they're pretty busy and and frankly weren't interested in joining us. J.N., that didn't surprise you. Is that because it's a sensitive time and and it's not appropriate for a union to be on the air at this point in time?
[0:04:47] J.N. Musto: I don't know what's appropriate or not, but I understand the fact that the press of a statewide strike of the magnitude of the HGEA requires Russell and his leadership to pay attention to that, and I'm sure that that is not an indication on his part that he's not interested in the public understanding what they're about. It's just a matter of time and priority.
[0:05:12] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are J.N. Musto, executive director of the University of Hawaii Professional Assembly, and Tony Rutledge, who is the financial secretary and treasurer of Local Five and president of Unity House. Our lines are open. Your calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. We've been joined in the studio with Bill Puett. Bill is from the Center for Labor Education and Research at the University of Hawaii. Bill, welcome.
[0:05:43] Bill Puette: Thank you very much.
[0:05:45] Randall Roth: Bill, you're going to have to get a little bit closer to your microphone. Um, let's talk a little bit about this current strike. Bill, what what's the main issue in in this and I want to come back to talk about the other unions and unionism in general, but tell us a little bit about what's going on with HGEA right now.
[0:06:04] Bill Puette: Well, I'm um not a spokesperson for HGEA, so I hesitate to get too deeply into this. I think I know about as much as most of the other people in the union movement, following as much as we can what's in the press about the the issues that are there, but I think certainly the strike has to do with the fact that you have to keep in mind that this is a contract that really expired back in 1993, and so by all ordinary procedures and has been the past practice throughout the state, they should have reached a settlement, or should have been able to finish off this contract back in 1993 in time for the 1993 legislature to approve the funding for a contract. So, what we have is a situation where people are really working without a contract by contract extension on their previous contract for virtually two years, which is the length of the ordinary agreement. I mean, but honestly, they'd be beginning to negotiate the successor agreement to the one they have not yet negotiated around this time period.
[0:07:07] Bill Puette: So, um, failing to negotiate certainly a lot has had to do with the questions involved with the state economy, but from what we've seen in the papers and from what has been released, there was a fact finder's report which was provided for by the Chapter 89 of fact finder's report after impasse has been declared, and they've apparently indicated that there is money and that there is an availability to to fund the kind of raises that they're looking at. In addition to that, I understand that HGA has um offered to submit the dispute to binding arbitration and is hoping that that would be one way to settle settle the issue. In that case, you have, again, a neutral person who's going to be listening to the state and counties argue about their funding. But then all of the information will be out. Factually they'll determine do they or do they not have the money to be able to do this and what is the union's need. And so they have refused to accept binding arbitration.
[0:08:06] Randall Roth: Bill, I want to come back to you for more in just a moment, but I want to remind everyone that phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821 and I want to ask J.N. Musto over here, assuming the money is available, should the state go ahead and and make a much larger settlement with HGEA after having settled at two plus two is the terminology that I'm reading in the newspaper, 2% per year for two years, with other unions, such as your union, the UP Group?
[0:08:36] J.N. Musto: Let me I'll answer that very directly, but I want to just get back to something Bill just said. Bill, isn't it isn't it right, correct that in the history since 1970 when we enacted Chapter 89 that provides public sector bargaining, the state of Hawaii as an employer has never accepted a fact finder's report, never.
[0:08:58] Bill Puette: That's correct.
[0:08:59] J.N. Musto: And they have never in the history of collective bargaining agreed to submit it to a neutral arbitrator.
[0:09:05] Bill Puette: I believe there was one case in the in the teachers HSTA very early on. In fact, many times I've heard that's given as the reason why the state does not want to participate in in arbitration. But that was a settlement of a teacher's strike in 1972, I think. The reason Bill is that they don't believe that their arguments will hold up before an impartial third party. Is that it?
[0:09:21] Randall Roth: I would say that's very accurate.
[0:09:32] J.N. Musto: See I think that's an important I think that's an important part of this strike that people don't understand, right, you know, they really don't understand.
[0:09:40] Tony Rutledge: You know, if you look at the numbers, over a three-year period, when somebody doesn't take a 2% increase like they didn't take, as if, as all other government workers did, this year, a 4% is is not even breaking even yet. What you would need to really break even is another year at 4%, which is generally what they're asking, so that over three-year period, what everybody else got, a 6% if they went for the third year at 2% would be a break even for for them. So anything less is taking less than what everybody else got. But then again, some of them only got a two-year agreement and they're hoping to negotiate something better than 2%. So their offer that they initially made, I understand, if I read the papers correctly, is in line, they wanted an a one-step up in addition to the four and four.
[0:10:27] Tony Rutledge: So basically all they're asking for is what everybody else has got or may get.
[0:10:31] Randall Roth: Okay. So they're not far out of line, and I think the state should consider that and check their numbers. I've got a caller, but I first have to ask J.N. Musto, has the state bargained in that fashion because of of bad will or because uh governmental organizations you know function in a in a different way than private organizations or what would you attribute what you described to?
[0:10:57] J.N. Musto: Well, I think it's a simplistic mindset on the part of the state. They have When you say the state, are we talking about elected officials or The state of Hawaii, the way public sector bargaining occurs. It's the responsibility of the Governor of the state of Hawaii. The governor controls the votes, even the votes for the city and county of Honolulu, or the Maui, or wherever. The three there are five five individuals that make up the informal employer under the law, three of them are appointed by the Governor and are part of his cabinet. So, when you talk about the state, you cannot talk about anybody else in our state but the governor. That was true for George Ariyoshi, that was true for Governor Burns, it's true for John Waihee.
[0:11:39] Randall Roth: So, speaking as a as a union person, you don't necessarily consider either of our last two governments to governors to be pro-union?
[0:11:47] J.N. Musto: They have they have not acted in a way that is typified in the press as being bending over backwards to accommodate public employees. Quite to the contrary, they have acted as tough and mean as as any private sector employer.
[0:12:03] Randall Roth: We've got a caller. Let's take uh Alan from Kapaa, and then we'll come back to our guest. Alan, you're on the air.
[0:12:10] Caller: Oh, um I got two questions actually. Uh, first of all, um and a lot of the uh callers calling in for about the strike right now, some people have said, well, you know, I don't know what they're talking about because I work at, you know, such such and such a company and we only get um x number of dollars. And um, my thing is maybe the union should uh try to turn it around and say, well, I think that instead of blaming the union people for asking for a decent wage that um, you know, people should say that, well, uh that shows the general, uh, it kind of reveals the general low um wage scale that we have over here, rather than putting it on the union people, you know, for asking too much. It said the private industry pays um, you know, a low wage scale.
[0:12:51] Caller: That's one thing.
[0:12:52] Randall Roth: Okay, let let me get a response to that uh Tony. I think you're I think you're absolutely right. I mean, uh even in our industry where we took a strike uh the last time the hotel industry, it's just try to catch up to an area in in Northern California to San Francisco area so that we could then maintain our 20 or 30 30% behind.
[0:13:12] Tony Rutledge: So and we had a strike for that, so we were still far behind, but of course, you know, there's there's always the the balance, you know, either they got the money or they don't have the money. I think in this situation I guess the government is trying to act responsibly for the citizens of the state by saying there is a shortage of funds and what do you do. It's it's a it's a tough problem but uh do you take it out on the hides of the workers, and I don't believe you should. Okay. If you can't do if you can't operate properly, then uh look at other areas, but never never take it out on the workers who try to make the thing work.
[0:13:46] Randall Roth: Okay. Alan, you had another question?
[0:13:48] Caller: Well I get two more. The second one is uh if Hawaii is such a strong union state, why do we trail in uh the weight scale of of places like in California on on the mainland. If we're strong, why shouldn't we be getting, you know, parity?
[0:13:59] Randall Roth: Well, let let me ask that question of of Bill Puett, who's the director of the Center for Labor Education and Research at the University of Hawaii. Come on, Bill, what's the answer?
[0:14:08] Bill Puette: Well, again, it's not an easy question to answer. Um the uh I think to begin with, you have to understand that the Hawaii wages, you know, when you compare union to non-union wages on a national scale uh and which has been done by the Bureau of Labor Statistics on an annual basis. What they discover is that the average difference between union and non-union wages is some somewhere on in the range of $5 an hour um in wage in in the wage and benefits. And so To the advantage of the union. To the advantage of the union. Exactly. And so um what you find out though when you try to do a study on a local level in any place, no matter where it is, if you try to just look quickly at North Carolina or quickly in California or in any local place, you find that that disappears, that differential disappears. And one of the reasons is that uh uh very interesting conclusions by a study by two Harvard economists is that the uh unions where they have any kind of uh uh majority uh in the workforce are able to lift the uh you know, the wages in the area. So that, in other words, non-union uh employers will tend to meet the wages that the union employers have negotiated. So there's a spillover effect, they call that. And non-union workers often benefit from negotiations that go on with union workers. Now, the thing is that that effect is going to happen where there is a majority. In no place in the United States is there an absolute majority. The average the rate of unionization in the United States right now averages 16, 15 to 16% of the of the workforce. In Hawaii, we have one of the highest unionization rates, and it's in fact, we have the highest right now according to the last calculation I've seen at 30% of the workforce.
[0:15:22] Tony Rutledge: I'd like to add something uh in addition to that, uh we we we keep up, we try to keep up, we've got Woody Mott who's our research director, and he informed me the beginning of this year that very for the I think for the first time, even though we're and one of the reasons we're behind is that we're more of a service industry state type state. We're not manufacturing, we're not in steel, we're not in car, um making, or what have you. Basically a service industry, but our wages on the average now average the same as a manufacturing uh state throughout the country. So we're at that level now we're at least for service industry, we're probably above normal. But for overall, our cost of living has is still a lot higher because of the being an island state and everything I have to be flown in or shipped in.
[0:16:40] Randall Roth: Okay, let's take your last question, Alan from Kapaa and then we've got another caller waiting.
[0:16:44] Caller: Well, I don't know it's not really well, maybe there is a question. Um there's been a lot of talk about you know how the union uh unionism in Hawaii is strong but a lot of the uh that strength is due to not so much power that they yield but influence with people in government. Um relationship with certain individuals in government who have power might be pretty good. And I was wondering if there comes a time when it's become too buddy-buddy and well, sometimes maybe a a union official, a leader might not do something which might decline decide not to do something which might be good for the union but might embarrass that person who might be a personal friend or you know, they have this some kind of relationship. It's it's a double-edged sword. It's could be used in to the advantage of the union, but then might be used against them too.
[0:17:28] Randall Roth: Well, Alan, um uh J.N. Musto's union was accused, along with some other unions as as being um uh a part of of government, being too close to government here in Hawaii in a chapter in the Price Paradise volume, too, and I think J.N. J.N. has some thoughts about that.
[0:17:43] J.N. Musto: Uh, well, actually, nobody ever accused me of talking nicely about government officials or the governors of these states, as a matter of fact. Um not to say that they aren't good and decent men. Uh they they have been and their their whole purpose is to try to do what they think is best, but I have certainly disagreed with them. I um we have said at UHPA something very simple, that since we are a public sector union, if we are going to get politics out of the university, then this union has to become political, because the decisions are made by elected politicians, particularly the governor, and then secondarily the legislature. So, it's a bit paradoxical that to remove politics, you must become political, and that's the decision we made in 1989. The other thing that we've done with our political money, though, is to promote the university and its mission to the community so that they can have an understanding of it. The money that we have spent has not been self-promotion of our union. The money we have spent is to promote the faculty and the programs of UH and its importance to the economic development of our state. And uh so with that, I'm quite proud. I feel very good. In fact, presidents and regents and
[0:19:00] Caller: Officials of the government have praised us for for doing something that they said they wished they could do, but were unable.
[0:19:06] Randall Roth: Thank you for your call, Allen. I'm here with two union officials, JN Musto and Tony Rutledge, and with the director of the Center for Labor Education and Research at the University of Hawaii, Bill Pewitt. We have another caller on the line, Teresa from Waikiki. You're on the air.
[0:19:24] Caller: A couple of things come to mind because of a current strike. As a state employee, I was forced to be a union to have a union dues deducted from my salary for HGEA, like it or not. And I just heard I believe last week that it's illegal. And so I don't know whether that was a national legislation that is superseded by state or what. And then I had something else rather important, but could you answer that? How how come that is, is it really illegal in nationally and not in the state of Hawaii to be forced to be a union member?
[0:20:00] Randall Roth: Let's find out Teresa. I'm going to ask Bill Pewitt to respond to your question.
[0:20:04] Bill Puette: Well, first of all, you're not being forced to be a union member. Um, what you are, what what you're talking about here is the union's ability to assess dues from non-members in order for them to represent you in terms of collective bargaining. And you have to understand something about the way that the labor law works. And the labor law works differently in the United States from virtually any other place. One of the things that people don't understand is that unions have a duty of representation to all people in what's been described in by the law as a bargaining unit. Doesn't have to do with their membership. It has to do with a bargaining unit which is determined at the time a union first, uh, is certified as the representative for a group of workers. And the way American law works is that workers generally have to decide as a group, as a block, as a community of interest to join a union or not join a union. It's and they do this by voting. All right? And once they have voted, then the majority vote will carry the entire group into the uh, representation of the union. The union then has an obligation under the law to represent all people in that unit, whether they are members or not members. All right. Now the law provides that it is acceptable for unions who have to represent all the employees in the bargaining unit, whether they want to or not, um, to charge a a service fee for that representation. Because for instance, if you're uh, if you come in as an employee and you don't want to join the union, you don't have to join the union, but you do have to pay this service fee, uh, if you are in a situation where something happens to you and your contract, the contract which covers you, whether you want it to or not, whether the union wants it for you or not, uh, because the contract covers everybody in the bargaining unit. And if you have a right, uh, under that contract, for instance you're suspended or discharged or some other thing is taken away from you that the the law says that or the contract says you have a right to, then the union must file a grievance for you, and uh, if you are not paying that service fee, then they're doing that and they must do it anyway, whether you pay the service fee or not.
[0:22:18] Randall Roth: Bill, Bill, let me break in just for a second. In most states, I think if Teresa wanted to not be a member of the union and not pay union dues, she would have that option. Isn't that true?
[0:22:28] Bill Puette: No, that's not correct. The uh this is what Tony was referring to earlier, the Right to Work Committee. And the Right to Work Committee has attempted to go around and pass state laws, and this can be done on a state-by-state basis. And if a state passes a law that says that uh a union security agreement, in other words, an agreement whereby the union is able to take a service fee from people who are not members, but who it is required to represent. Uh, and uh and if they pass a law saying that that's illegal, that's called an open shop or a Right to Work state. Okay, again, still in in such a state, and by the way, only 21 of the 50 states have such laws. So the majority of states are not Right to Work or not open shop states. Um, if such a if such a law were passed in Hawaii, then she would have the option of not paying her service fee, but the union would not have the option of representing her or not representing her. They would be required to represent her in any circumstance.
[0:23:23] Randall Roth: Teresa, do you have another question?
[0:23:24] Caller: Oh, yeah, the other thing is um it's kind of catch 22, but right now the strikers are allowed to get workman's compensation. I mean unemployment insurance, the employer is paying for it, so our state is paying for it, our city county is paying for the uh unemployment compensation that the strikers have to get. And so they are by striking, they're they're forcing their their state, uh the state government, the city government has to pay more more revenue for their workman's compensation because it makes their claims rise, and it's a vicious cycle and that's why many of us are anti-violently anti-union.
[0:24:04] Randall Roth: Teresa, let's let's see what let's see what JN Musto has to say about that one.
[0:24:07] J.N. Musto: First of all, Teresa, please please don't be anti-violent, anti-union. It is not it is not good and it's not fair and it's not fair to the standard of living that has been created in Hawaii. Um, and we can go into that, but as far as unemployment is concerned, for people on strike, it is an issue of balance between the interest of the employee and the employer. This has been, again, every time there's a major strike, Tony will will will go and agree with this. Every time there's a major strike, people misinterpret, they do not understand the unemployment laws as it applies to that strike. Basically, if the employer is able to continue their business, all right, then the workers are eligible for unemployment. That puts balance back into the the system, power between the employee group and the employer. If, in fact, the strike is wholly successful, they do not qualify for unemployment. Uh, there's a little there are other details to that, but in its simple terms, that's where it's at.
[0:25:15] Bill Puette: And on the other side of that for public uh worker strikes is that during a public worker strike, the employer is actually making money because they're still collecting taxes. Their revenues are not being affected by this, but they they're not paying out uh the employee salaries and I think the house speaker even mentioned that they're making money when the unions go on strike.
[0:25:36] Randall Roth: Tony, what do you think about that?
[0:25:37] Tony Rutledge: Well, you know, that's I've had a situation very similar to that with the Kaiser hospital where people continued to pay premiums, but even in that situation, we did not get unemployment benefits because they play the games with the people being serviced properly or not, how many customers came in and you know, if there's a drop below the 20%, you're not eligible. So in our situation, well, what I've thought about proposing and I've been talking to various unions, is that I think this on this one point that there should be uh a change in the law because it's it's allowed to play games with. And I think the way it should work when it gets to a labor dispute and you know, I'll throw it out to you guys what you think, but I think that uh if you reach an impasse and the union refuses to to go to binding arbitration to try to settle the the dispute and the employer wants to do that or is willing to, then if they strike they should not get, will not be eligible for unemployment. Vice versa, if there's a a dispute and the union is willing to submit and the company is not, and uh willing to submit and they do strike, then I think it should be automatic they get it. And I think that'll defer or try to deter some of the strikes that we have uh coming up or uh we've had in the past.
[0:26:53] Randall Roth: Teresa, what do you think? Well, Thanks for the answer. I I don't I don't think I've changed my mind about it, but but I appreciate your your answer. Thanks for calling, Teresa. One last point on the what she brought up, maybe this will help the situation. As the situation with the right to work where they don't have to join, a lot of other countries allow unions to just represent the people that want to be represented in a union. They just sign up and they belong and the union has the right to represent them, even if it's not the majority. But they'll just stick to those people that want to be represented. I think I would go for that system. Okay? But I don't think this this government is ready to allow unions to do that.
[0:27:33] Randall Roth: I'm here with two union officials, JN Musto of the UH Professional Assembly and Tony Rutledge of local 5 and Unity House, plus Bill Pewitt, who is the director of the Center for Labor Education and Research. Phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821 and neighbor islanders can call collect. Again, the number is 955-8821. Well, we've had a lot of um uh articles in the newspapers the last month or so about the HSTA, the Teachers Association endorsement of um Lieutenant Governor Cayetano. Uh, JN just how important do you think a union endorsement is? Is Is that something that the candidates pretty much fight over or uh do they not consider it that big a deal?
[0:28:18] J.N. Musto: No, they they do consider it a very big deal. And why is that? Um, well, one of the one of the reasons is just basic efficacy of their candidacy. In other words, it's not the money, it's not the people, it's just that if this organization gives their imprimatur, their their seal, that it makes me a good person special in some particular way. And depending upon the union or the group, uh candidates will actively seek it. And I think in the case of the Hawaii State Teachers Association, everybody agrees that having the uh the endorsement of a teacher group, which is probably one of the most respected employment groups in the state of Hawaii, teachers, classroom teachers, K-12, that that's important to their candidacy and it says something about them as an individual.
[0:29:06] Randall Roth: Now, I'm sure that that nobody can actually measure this, but the perception is that if a union endorses a candidate that a higher percentage of its members will vote for that candidate than otherwise would have been the case.
[0:29:18] J.N. Musto: That's true. And I think that there is some definitive evidence that the organization can influence at least a portion of their membership who would be undecided.
[0:34:31] Caller: I have a question for uh Mr. Musto. It sounds to me like um what I've heard so far is a lot of excuses for the union. Uh when I complained about my wages to the uh UH Professional Assembly, I was told that um they couldn't do anything and that I should move to the mainland. I'm not sure that that is is that the type of treatment we would expect from our union?
[0:34:53] J.N. Musto: Well, I don't know what was uh what was told to Mike. I'm certainly we have told our members that we have tried diligently to get wages that are comparable to their mainland counterparts that reflect the cost of living here. Which really And if if that has not occurred, and it hasn't, some situations that there are fundamental choices people have to make. And uh and I can tell you a goodly number of faculty members every year make that choice that what it is costing them economically to participate in this university endeavor is too much and they do move back. That's not to suggest that we want that to be the outcome. But certainly if there's anybody to blame for this lack of response in salaries, it's not this union. Uh, it is, it is where these salaries fall in the priority uh before the state legislature and again, I would say particularly the Governor of the state.
[0:36:00] Randall Roth: But if I might observe, I think that's the whole purpose of a union is to make sure that wages are comparable and to do whatever is necessary to ensure that. Um, to roll over and say it's not our fault seems to be excusing the whole purpose of a union.
[0:36:12] J.N. Musto: No, no, no, we don't roll over. I mean, as we've said before, we have made an uh a concerted and we try to be responsible effort to educate the community about the impact, the economic impact of the university on our on our citizens, to exert the proper level of of force and influence, uh to to get our message across. Um, at the same time, there is we have a commitment to this community. We are a part of it. We are not above it. There are other needs, we understand that. They are social needs, there are needs of mothers uh with small children, there are need needs of disabled people, there are needs of homeless, there are lots of needs. And uh we have to put that all together in the mix if we're going to be a responsible organization.
[0:37:02] Randall Roth: Mike, thank you for your call. We've we've got another caller from Manoa, might be somebody at the University of Hawaii. Ron, you're on the air.
[0:37:11] Caller: Hi Randy.
[0:37:12] Randall Roth: Hey, Ron Brown, right?
[0:37:14] Caller: I had uh a couple of questions for the panelists. We should warn the the listeners that Ron Brown specializes in uh labor law at the University of Hawaii. Oh yeah, I do and Ron. Hey, how you doing?
[0:37:26] Randall Roth: Go ahead, Ron.
[0:37:26] Caller: I mean just a lot of the public comes in contact with the employees who are picketing and they they see them on the line. It might be useful to have some comments about the the rights and limitations on the on the picketers and the relationships that are created with the police to um to maintain order. Tony's dad Art has is famous for the uh Rutledge shuffle on the crossing the street. It might be useful or interesting at least.
[0:37:50] Randall Roth: Ron, stay on the line. Tony, tell us about the Rutledge shuffle.
[0:37:53] Tony Rutledge: Yeah, well that's a little different situation. We need in this case I guess the we're not trying to get the community mad at us, uh, speaking as an HEA advocate, uh, uh, but then again, there are other situations where such as in the hotels where, you know, there's a a lot of the customers, you know, they they uh they don't have to come in. So you try to pre try to make it as difficult as possible, but uh with this type of strike, it's a little bit different because people when they come to the government they there's definitely a need for something uh of a social nature I guess, to to accomplish. So, to uh to to start this the Rutland shuffle or whatever it's called which is a slow walk uh, would not necessarily uh produce the kind of results uh I'm sure that they want which is community support and I can understand uh uh the experience they've had uh in the past because it's not as if they've never they've never held signs before. It's it's pretty obvious when you come by the the it's an automatic sign with a hand up in the air waving, you know. So they're very experienced in that uh regard and it it's actually uh I think it works better for them this under the current situation.
[0:39:12] Bill Puette: You know, that's interesting. As I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I had the distinct feeling that the campaign was on and I was wondering which candidate are these folks uh supporting. Ron, what else were you going to ask?
[0:39:21] Caller: The just keeping on that picket line, uh questions uh, uh I wanted to make comment on what um determines whether another union, an un-involved union, honors or doesn't honor picket lines.
[0:39:34] Tony Rutledge: Why? I think all unions should should honor picket lines. I don't know if any that is not and uh, but they also have unfortunately some some of their contracts uh have certain requirements of them that uh may may take away that right, depending what the situation is. But by and large, I'm sure all unions support each other.
[0:39:55] Bill Puette: And uh, I'm Bill Puette again from the Center for Labor Education. Um, I would only add to that that the public sector workers uh have more restrictions under the public sector bargaining law than private sector workers do, ordinarily uh in terms of respecting uh another union's picket line. So, uh, and that would mean that people who belong to the other bargaining units, the other public employees, really do not have the freedom to uh turn away from and and and not to cross the picket line. Uh and the way the law is generally uh accommodated is that they required unions to have some sort of reserve or neutral gate, uh who non-striking employees, which gate non-striking employees uh can can enter through. But um, uh, I've noticed that they've been doing this a little bit at the University of Hawaii to some extent, but for the most part, uh it still is up to every employee to decide, and law essentially says that, that the the employees have to decide on an individual basis whether or not they can cross uh another union's picket line. And it's a matter of conscience, and uh, there are many workers who see a picket line and it's an automatic response, they just feel that it's improper for them to cross some other union's picket line. Those people, they have to sympathize have uh have sacrificed a great deal and the and they simply can't bring themselves uh to making that kind of line. It's a very difficult choice for public workers, so.
[0:41:22] Caller: in response to Theresa from Waikiki's comment then you're saying, Bill, that the people who are out there picketing are doing so voluntarily, they're not required to be there?
[0:41:30] Bill Puette: The people who are out there picketing are out there voluntarily, that's correct. They would be uh they're they're generally expected by the union to be out there picketing, but they're not going to lose wages or there's I mean, they're already losing their wages, so there is no strike fund and I'm aware of that HGEA has that they can withhold if they do not picket. So, uh, I've been out uh walking along with uh some of the employees in my off hours and uh I don't find that a problem. All of them are out there as far as I can see on a voluntary basis and they're um a concerned about the issues and and they're committed to the strike.
[0:42:07] Caller: Just maybe a last question, Randy, on the uh for JN who's who's quiet over there. The role of essential employees in uh settling disputes. Uh there's been television televised uh coverage of the hearings downtown about the um who's essential and who's not. How does uh JN see them factoring or not factoring into the um reaching settlement?
[0:42:30] J.N. Musto: I think uh we're making a big mistake in this definition of essential employees in the public sector. Uh, I think HLRB is wrong-headed on it and and their decisions again this time. I think it demonstrates quite clearly that the government, by the way, the Governor who appoints all three of those board members, can exercise influence over the decisions of HLRB, even though nobody would ever admit that. Uh, the whole purpose of uh the using the term essential, all right, and making it seem as if it were equal to health and safety issues is uh is a and by and large, a way of trying to uh to make a strike an ineffectual activity. Uh, every public employee, I agree with an editorial that was in the paper, every public employee should be essential and if they're not, then why did we create the position. Uh, and and making this trying to make these determinations in the way they have, I think in the long run, quite frankly, will extend strikes. It will make them go on longer. Uh, the whole point of the strike is to try and be the final method of impasse resolution and for that to work, both sides have to feel the pain. Uh, I disagree by the way with the notion that one of the obligations of public sector unions is to make sure the public doesn't feel any harm when they're on strike. If that's the case, the strike will never settle. Um, this is in fact an issue of of a relationship between an employer and their employees and it has to be settled because both sides feel the need in their own interest to settle it.
[0:44:16] Bill Puette: Um yes, I would I I would like to sort of follow up what Jen was saying about essential workers and in my opinion, I would agree also that uh the provisions and the collective bargaining law for public employees with essential workers is just simply ill-conceived. And one of the real problems I have with it is that ordinarily under the principle of law is that when you uh take away a worker's right to strike, then you have to provide some other mechanism for the dispute to be resolved. Usually arbitration. And so what we've done in Hawaii is very strange thing. We've taken away portion of the employees' right to strike, and we've not given them any kind of arbitration. You you know, it's sort of across hand for that. So you end up sort of saying go on strike but go on strike forever. You don't have the right. You have to cross then a certain percentage of unit will have to be scabs and the other have and and they're until we don't need you anymore. But they don't give them binding arbitration and I I am very uncomfortable with the way the law currently provides for essential employees.
[0:45:16] Caller: I've got to tell you as I put together what JN just said and what you've said, Bill, I'm wondering when I'm ever going to get my secretary back. This strike could go on a long time. By the way, it's it's a happy secretaries day. We postponed our our secretaries lunch uh that we had scheduled for today.
[0:45:33] Tony Rutledge: I I guess uh essential workers are in effect are very much like federal workers. They don't have the right to strike and uh they're they're they're at the mercy of what whatever the government wants to pay or if they don't like it they can quit and go work someplace else. And that's a sad situation, you know. To have our our own government where you look at democracy and everything else where they they're very employees who don't have the right to strike, I think is wrong, but that's another long story.
[0:46:04] Bill Puette: I'm here with two union officials, JN Musto of the UH Professional Assembly, and Tony Rutledge of Local 5 and Unity House, plus Bill Puette, who's the director of the Center for Labor Education and Research at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Bill, I think you had a comment you wanted to make? Oh, yes, just on federal workers. Um, it's true federal workers don't have binding arbitration but they do have an entire mechanism built into the law whereby through wage determinations, uh based on community standards, that their wages are arrived at so that it's not, you know, they're able to conduct business and and and negotiate regular uh salary increases without the need to go to strike, okay? We've got somebody on the line and before I I take his call I just want to remind everybody else that the number is 955-8821 and our caller is the only one on the line right now so um please call in and and we'll get to you as soon as we finish talking to Rodney from Manoa. Rodney, you're on the air.
[0:46:57] Caller: Hi, I have two questions. Uh first of all concerning Mike that called in earlier, I know of at least three occasions when he's complained publicly about being told by a union representative that his low salary situation should be met with leaving the islands, which in fact he is doing. And I just wonder why it is that in each of these occasions none of the union representatives have felt obligated to apologize to this man. And then second, since the question he raised involves the question of market forces, and every time this discussion comes up, the union representatives mention market forces, I would like to know where in any union contract market forces is mentioned and how any member of the union can deal with that question of feeling that their salary is not competitive with market forces.
[0:47:52] Bill Puette: Well, let's see what JN Musto has to say.
[0:47:55] J.N. Musto: In uh in 1990 UHPA negotiated special salary adjustments with President Simone which dealt with the issues of market, merit, retention, and equity. We had those those procedures temporarily implemented, we negotiated permanent procedures, they were signed off on by Board of Regents members and President Simone, and the state of Hawaii through the Office of Collective Bargaining moved to keep them from being implemented. We proposed those same procedures uh in this last round of bargaining and we were met with the with the negative reaction by the university administration and by the the state. Uh we had a we had a brief uh paragraph in our contract that calls for the negotiations of special salary adjustments. We are attempting to do that again now. We again include market, merit, equity, and retention. I think that we are the only union by the way in the state that has consistently over the last decade proposed all those issues. Um we make no apology to anyone in terms of what we have done to try to increase their salaries because we know in good conscience we have done everything we can. I would apologize to anyone who feels that the state of Hawaii doesn't value them enough to want to pay those salaries to retain them. Uh that is a difficulty but that is not something that uh we have done and it's something is not something we espouse.
[0:49:27] Tony Rutledge: But you have in a letter that Mr uh Mike has a copy of, a representative from your offices directly telling him that if he was unhappy, he could leave the state, which he is doing. And I think that is something that this union ought not to be doing.
[0:49:43] Bill Puette: Let's see what Tony has to say.
[0:49:46] Tony Rutledge: And not being from from JN's local but you know sometimes it's it's very difficult but you know when you have to give people options, you got to lay out the facts and if there's nothing you can do and that's an option, then you got to tell the member what it is. I mean there's only so far you can go there's only so much you can do and a union is as strong as its members and the conditions that is involved and it's a very complicated thing, but when you get down to the bottom line, if you can't produce for one segment or one portion but the majority accepts what's going on and by and large because they understand the overall complexities of the situation and an individual has to face the facts and if that's the only way he can get what he can get it is to go someplace else and I would I I've told members look you know you don't have to stay here. I mean you know we're not forcing you to do that and and I'd like to make it a lot better than it is but it's going to take some time. If you're not willing to put the time and effort into make it better, then maybe you should look for someplace else to go.
[0:50:51] Bill Puette: So the only way currently we can deal with this is by turnover and and I think that point needs to be made to the state representatives. I understand you guys feel between a rock and a hard place. But uh Tony, let me say something. I I know some of these people that are out on the line and I know that they're not getting paychecks on Friday, right and I was wondering if you just uh you know given a dress or something where people can make donations or something for some of these people that are going to go without paychecks on Friday.
[0:51:20] Tony Rutledge: Sure. I mean all you got to do is call the HGA I guess and uh we've we've we've done that already and we've asked what kind of assistance they can they they have, but they've been a little bit busy to get back to us and I'm sure that uh if this thing lasts a little bit longer there's going to be great needs for some contributions to assist some workers who are in need of government services.
[0:51:42] Bill Puette: Thank Thank you Rodney. We've got another caller online three, Dick from Maui. You're on the air.
[0:51:47] Caller: Thank you. Uh two questions, one. The ending of the legislature, does that put any pressure on the negotiations, and Oh, good question. Let's let's get an answer to that one and then move to your next one. Uh Bill, would would that hurt things? Yes, I mean, there's no the simple answer to that question is definitely is putting pressure on negotiations. And clearly the timing of the strike to begin with was meant uh to coincide with the fact that the legislature was in session and it's a unique opportunity in the to a certain extent speak uh because ordinarily the way the timeline works uh for public sectors, it's you can usually just make it through the the uh the procedure by the end of the legislative session. Now the fact that this really this this contract was from 1993 permitted them uh to to work at such a way that they were able to go on strike during legislative session which is unique in the history of public sector uh bargaining. So clearly, in order after a a settlement is negotiated, it has to be approved by the legislature, has to be funded by the legislature, so there is that extra step. If that does not happen, in other words, if the strike goes past the uh closure of the legislature, then they uh the the two options are that uh there will lead to be a special session of the uh legislature convened, uh the current session will be extended or uh they'll wait until the next session. Wait a year, wait a year exactly. Those are the three possibilities, but the, you know, the pressure goes both ways because if the union takes the position that we're not going to go back to work until this thing is settled and when it is settled we want it implemented, then they probably going to have to call a special session if they want them back to work instead of waiting for the next session to be called. Yeah Tony, but uh you know when the uh back in the 1970s when HSTA went out on strike they settled and the legislature didn't come back in special session. Well then they should stay out. I agree. Oh, dangerous talk. Dick uh I interrupted you, you had another question I think. Yeah, another question, I'd like to hear from JN, are there any recommendations he could make to have this law improve, the public the collective bargaining law that should be changed to make it better for both the state and for the employees? Well, I I think that uh there are a lot of suggestions and actually we've got some uh language um that we've been interested in uh seeing if it would get a hearing before the uh before the legislature and actually Senator uh Mike McCartney has been very interested in participating in uh a review of chapter 89. I think the great fear of perhaps speaking on behalf of some of the other public sector unions is that if we do open up the issue, the difficulty will be that it will be an excuse for the people who are anti-union to come in and uh and simply gut even those those things that are there. I think that's a legitimate concern, but I think there has to be a time in which you know one uh makes some fundamental decisions about what's best for the state and I think it would be better for the state to modify the law.
[0:54:44] Caller: Dick. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dick. Um, our phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. That's 955-8821. Well Tony, I know you've been involved in labor issues for a long, long time. I'm curious what you think about this. I've had four or five people during the last couple days suggest that maybe this strike is is orchestrated. That maybe at some point in time a candidate for Governor is going to ride in on a white horse and solve everything and get a whole bunch of of political points out of this thing. Do you see any merit at all to that uh theory? That's a that's a great idea, but I don't think that's what the strike is all about. There's less there than meets the eye. But I think the longer it goes, there's there's some opportunist politicians that I'm sure would like to, you know, call a mass meeting and say that these things got to get settled and uh something's got to be done. And there's an opportunity for these future Governor candidates to to do that. And now uh if I was a administration, I'd be quite concerned about that because all that would show is that apparently I don't have control and I I can't uh handle the situation. So if I'm a I'm already a lame duck, and I don't want to be a dead duck when it's over, so better get moving and get something done because they you know forces are there for something like that to happen, but that's not the reason that it's lasted this long, I'm sure. JN, do you have any thoughts about that? Well, you know, I I don't see any of the three candidates in a position to actually take any action. Uh I mean, they could talk, but uh they aren't they're not in a position to act. I think it would be a shame if this strike is continuing because the current administration feels an obligation to whomever may come after them uh and and worried about setting some sort of precedent or or doing something that will make it hard for them. I think that that issue's over. Uh this governor is Governor until November of 1994 and then it's over, he is ineligible to run again. Um my my best suggestion is settle, you know, do what you need to do and let whoever is Governor after you deal with the issues of labor relations that they he or she may face at that time.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Jay Enn, you shook somebody's hand a few months ago settling for roughly 2% per year for two years, and probably did so thinking that the other other government worker unions weren't going to get much more than that, if any more than that.
[0:57:14] J.N. Musto: How would it affect future bargaining if this union because of the strike were to get a lot more than what your your union and other unions have gotten? Uh that has never been an issue for Jay Enn Musto. In fact, I have uh I probably been a lot different than some of my colleagues in the other public sector unions. I have I have asserted that each unit should be evaluated on the basis of its need, of whether the arguments are there, whether they're supported by by the facts. Uh I believe that the idea of me tooism, of same same, these are all things that are used is fundamentally not in the best interest of the public because it means one of two things to me.
[0:57:57] J.N. Musto: One, we're not giving people enough based on the legitimate need, or two, we're giving some people too much based on wherever they find themselves. Uh and for the and I think that's one of the reasons, by the way, we have a strike is that the government cannot see beyond the fact that they have to treat everybody the same. My contention is you treat everybody the same and then you don't treat everybody in a fair and equitable manner.
[0:58:23] Tony Rutledge: I I I agree with that. And uh just like to add that um it's a very difficult situation uh but I've learned over the years uh being that I've had many negotiations that if you don't get everything you want, or you you get taken advantage of this one time and you don't get everything, the next time you probably make it up. Over the long run, everything equals out, so don't get too excited if you didn't get as much as the other guy, because you'll probably get more than him the next time.
[0:58:54] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Jay Enn Musto, executive director of the University of Hawaii Professional Assembly, and Tony Rutledge, secretary of Local 5 of the Hotel and Restaurant Workers Union, and president of Union Unity House. Also, we have Bill Puett from the University of Hawaii. He's the director of their Center for Labor Education and Research. Our phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. Well, I want to ask each of our guests, and I know you've talked about uh some misconceptions that you feel the public has about unions already. Are there any other misconceptions that you feel are out there that you'd like to use this opportunity to to address?
[0:59:36] J.N. Musto: Jay Enn? Well, you know, um I've agreed to teach a course at Manoa next fall uh labor economics in the school of business, and uh basically the reason that I've chosen to to uh to teach this course is because I've lectured at Hawaii Pacific University and at Manoa and some other campuses as a guest of various classes, and I've gone in to undergraduate and graduate classes with students who were primarily local, born and raised here, and I've started off by asking the question to them, how many of you know what the ILWU is? And I have seen an astounding lack of response. In some cases, nobody would raise their hand. Even though when I asked them, how many of you have had a relative, grandfather, grandmother, parent who worked on a plantation, virtually everybody raised their hand.
[1:00:29] J.N. Musto: I followed that up with questions like, do you know who Jack Hall was? Nobody knew. The reason that that disturbs me is I believe that the ILWU, to point to one particular union, and not to take away credit from the teamsters, but the ILWU was probably the single greatest factor why those local kids were sitting in those college classrooms, and they were unaware of it. They were fundamentally unaware of what the unions did to shift the money power oligarchy of this state. It wasn't the political revolution of '54, it was the impact of the unions that in dollars and cents in the standard of living that they had that made the most difference. And my notion to the to those of you out there who were on the worked on the plantations and whose parents did, talk to your children. I I think it's pathetic that in one generation such such memories can be lost and if they are lost then we're going to be doomed to relive them. And I don't think anybody wants to go back to the days of the plantation.
[1:01:33] Tony Rutledge: Tony? Well, I I I'd like to see uh changes in the laws, federal laws, because you know I I as Jay Enn, I've had an opportunity to lecture at the few places myself and I you know, I always get to the point where most people think they're not sure whether I'm a communist, a a uh a Republican, a Democrat, or a revolutionist but I don't know, maybe I'm more of a revolutionist than anything else because I think there needs to be a revolution here to give the workers more say. Uh labor has been reduced in my opinion to like a thermostat on a radiator. All we get to do is let off steam every now and then, but the big national problems are not resolved and that where that's where workers need to be given health care, needs some of the social uh uh kinds of uh programs that other countries have.
[1:02:26] Tony Rutledge: But you know we we got to work within the system but the you know, got to get them off of our backs. I mean the workers' rights workers have to be heard, and the only way they're being heard now is through the unions basically because we have lobbyists and we have an organization. But it's really been very difficult because every time you make a little progress you get pushed back.
[1:02:45] Randall Roth: We have a caller from Lanai, Gene, you're on the air.
[1:02:49] Caller: Hello. How are you doing? Well, so sort of all right. I I I realize the union representatives there, the reason that they got their job is because the there is such a thing as having strikes, right?
[1:03:04] Tony Rutledge: Wrong. That's where I started, on the picket line.
[1:03:07] Randall Roth: Uh Gene, you've got just about one minute. Um, you better get to the question.
[1:03:12] Caller: Okay. The question is that no even if we settled it today, we still lose. It's going to take a long time to make it up.
[1:03:20] Tony Rutledge: That's correct. But that's the only options you got. Either that or stay back and don't get anything don't make any progress.
[1:03:26] J.N. Musto: Nothing ever came without a price, and if you're not willing to pay the price, as Tony says, you know, uh walk the walk, not just talk the talk, then you'll never make any progress.
[1:03:37] Randall Roth: Make make sense to you, Gene?
[1:03:39] Caller: Well, yeah, that does make sense, all right. Uh the only problem that I hate about it is it seems like uh somebody's getting greased there some place because we always have this problem.
[1:03:53] Tony Rutledge: Well, uh that's unfortunately sometimes a conception of people but that's not necessarily or ever the case because like I say, we've got too much government control, they don't allow things like that to happen, and I think we've got some great labor leaders in this state that uh are not that type and uh if they were, they'd be probably in jail by now.
[1:04:14] Caller: Oh, I doubt it. The reason why is because they still got a job, I mean.
[1:04:20] Randall Roth: Gene, we we got to get going. Thank you. Thank you, Gene. I appreciate your call. Uh Bill, you had something you wanted to add very briefly and then we got to sign off.
[1:04:28] Bill Puette: Well, um you asked about misconceptions and I thought a tie in with what was just set uh said by the last caller is uh one misconception that always bothered me, and that is that unions are monolithic and undemocratic, and it's a big mistake. We use the term the unions as if there was one big entity, and in in Hawaii there are many unions and many of them go different ways on major issues with respect to policy in the state as well as with endorsements. So, um it would be a mistake, I think.
[1:04:57] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bill. We hope that you've enjoyed this special version of the Price of Paradise Radio Show and that you'll tune in for our regular program each Saturday morning at 9:00 on this station or Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM. We have another special call-in show this Friday. Democratic candidate for Governor, Ben Cayetano, will be on hand from 10:00 to 11:00 in the morning to answer your questions. This weekend, our guest will be Ira Rohter, a political science professor at the University of Hawaii who co-founded Hawaii's Green Party and wrote a book called A Green Hawaii. With him will be David McClain, a distinguished professor of business and economics at the University of Hawaii. I want to thank our guest today, Jay Enn Musto and Tony Rutledge and Bill Puett. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Randy.
[1:05:22] Randall Roth: guest will be Ira Rohter, a political science professor at the University of Hawaii who co-founded Hawaii's Green Party and wrote a book called A Green Hawaii. With him will be David McClain, a distinguished professor of business and economics at the University of Hawaii. I want to thank our guests today, Janen Musto and Tony Ruttledge and Bill Pewit. Thank you, gentlemen.
[1:05:41] J.N. Musto: Thank you, Randy.
[1:05:41] Tony Rutledge: Thank you.
[1:05:42] Randall Roth: We really appreciate your time and your expertise. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. We really appreciate your time and your expertise. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. We hope you'll join host Randall Roth for a special live edition of the Price of Paradise radio show this Friday morning at 10:00 on KIPO 89.3 FM and KIFO 1380 AM. We hope you'll join host Randall Roth for a special live edition of the Price of Paradise radio show this Friday morning at 10:00 on KIPO 89.3 FM and KIFO 1380 AM.
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