Labor Unions in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-08-31
Guests: Sam Slom (State Senator; President, Small Business Hawaii); Ah Quon McElrath (labor activist; University of Hawaii regent)
Duration: 1:00:59

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8:00 on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning is labor unions in Hawaii and with me in the studio to discuss it are two of the most interesting people I've ever met, Aquan Mackereth, sometimes known as AQ, and Sam Slom. Aquan retired from the ILWU in 1981 but has maintained her interest in organized labor since then.
[0:00:48] Randall Roth: She's been involved in many activities over the years and currently is a member of the University of Hawaii Board of Regents. Sam Slom has headed up Small Business Hawaii for many years and somehow managed to get himself elected to the state legislature last year. Like AQ, Sam is known as someone who isn't afraid to speak out on the issues of the day. Sam, AQ, good morning.
[0:01:09] Sam Slom: Good morning, Randy.
[0:01:10] Randall Roth: Our goal this morning is to have a lot of give and take. In other words, even though each of my guests is known for being able to deliver a rousing speech, I'm asking that they make their points one at a time and let the other react to each one. If I sense a speech coming on, I'm going to ring my little bell. That's the bell. And that'll be my way of saying it's time to yield the floor.
[0:01:35] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, as long as the cows come home.
[0:01:37] Randall Roth: Okay, Sam. All right. With you. All right. Sam, why don't you start things off? Both you and AQ had an article in the advertiser this morning. Yours is on the left side, and it says a lot of wrong place. A lot of negative things about unions in Hawaii. Why don't you start by giving us the single biggest reason why you think the people of Hawaii are not being well-served by labor unions?
[0:02:01] Sam Slom: Well, there are several reasons, but I think the largest or single best reason is what has happened to us, what's happened every single mom, every family, every small business in this state. We've lost opportunities, we have squandered our resources here, and we have fallen behind every other mainland state and Asian countries as well. And I think we've done a real disservice to working women and working men in this state by not giving them more take-home pay and more choices.
[0:02:24] Randall Roth: And that's that's the fault of the union?
[0:02:27] Sam Slom: I believe that that is one of the primary things that the unions have wrought. They can't take either all of the credit nor all of the blame. I mean, we're all part of the same society, but they have a pivotal position in this community and in this state unlike any other.
[0:02:41] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, it seems to me that what you're doing is forgetting that we are a small cluster of islands in the middle of the Pacific, and we have very little control over external forces which affect the way the state is going. Blaming the public unions, I I assume that's what your that's that's your particular target this morning, is not the answer. After all, they constitute a very, very small portion of the unionized force in the state of Hawaii, 175,000 of them, and actually, they are just, uh, 21% of the total labor force. Private unions constitute 69%, incidentally, of the organized workers in the state of Hawaii.
[0:03:26] Randall Roth: AQ, let's let's get Sam's response to what I'm hearing you say, which is you think he's focusing on public worker unions. I think in his article he called them government worker unions. Um, is that what you're focusing on?
[0:03:38] Sam Slom: Well, I think AQ is correct. I think if if we're going to look at unions, we should differentiate between private unions, which I think are more responsible and have a a greater degree of containment in terms of the economy and things that are happening.
[0:03:54] Randall Roth: And Sam, define for all listeners, just what you mean by private union and give us a couple of examples so that everybody knows exactly what you're about to say.
[0:04:02] Sam Slom: Sure. Well, a private union is a a union that operates such as the trades or manufacturing unions or retail unions, uh, in the regular private sector economy. They're dependent on the profits and losses and and changes that occur. A a public or governmental union, public employees union, uh, operates among those people that work for the government, be it federal, state or local. And from that standpoint, they don't have any bottom line. Their bottom line is if they're seeking more benefits or more wage increases or changes, they come from raising taxes, not how well the government or how well the society is doing.
[0:04:37] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, except that that uh, if if government, for example, is in the economic doldrums as it is, then it appears to me that they do not have the revenues with which to meet what you perceive to be the demands of public unions. It's never worked that way. Public unions have in the past been the ones that are the most exploited. And that's why, for example, not only the national government but Hawaii in the '70s passed a collective bargaining law for public employees, simply because even under civil service they did not have that kind of protection.
[0:05:10] Sam Slom: I think you're being far too modest, AQ. I don't think anybody in this community thinks that public employee union members are being exploited. They have better salaries, they have better working conditions, they have more holidays, they have better benefits and retirement than anybody in the private sector and most other people around. But I want to get back to something you said initially, and that is that we're just a small cluster of islands, uh here in the Pacific, and we have no control over what happens externally. This is an argument that's been used not only by, uh, people in the union movement, but also by government for a long time. To show us that we have no power and that we have to just wait and see what happens in the Japanese economy, the mainland economy, a Persian Gulf War or something else.
[0:05:47] Sam Slom: And as you well know, the things that make Hawaii go are decided not outside but down at 415 South Beretania Street at the State legislature.
[0:05:54] Ah Quon McElrath: Oh, that's a lot of hogwash. Certainly where there's no way in which we can, uh, for example, effectuate any changes in our economy, if in fact we are competing with a lot of other trade policies determined at G7, or ASEAN, or whatever it might be, European community. Uh, those things decide whether or not we will export this or that or the other thing. As a matter of fact, exactly true for the simple reason that we cannot compete with other companies, with other countries rather, on the same basis, which is we don't manufacture a whole hell of a lot.
[0:06:52] Sam Slom: Let's talk about some of the any number of things, the any number of things, particularly if you're talking about sugar and pineapple. We had it on life support for more than two decades. We killed it because of the highest agricultural wages in the world. We killed it because we didn't allow any competition. And when we're talking about, uh, not having any any decision making here because of ASEAN or because of the GATT treaties or anything else, that's ridiculous. We have demonstrated that we can develop businesses and industries here, but we wind up exporting them because of the cost of doing business, which is primarily the cost of labor, the cost of mandated, which is forced, mandated benefits that come from the government here.
[0:07:29] Sam Slom: We have the lowest ratio of manufacturing businesses to total businesses of any state in the union, and that's because of our business climate. And who makes the business climate go? Compulsory unions.
[0:07:41] Ah Quon McElrath: That's not exactly true, simply because, one, we have neither the financial base nor the land base in order to do that huge kind of manufacturing that you're talking about. If we were to put ourselves next to California, for example, why does California have the uh capacity to come out of the economic doldrums and Hawaii does?
[0:08:04] Sam Slom: Oh, that's real simple, AQ. And if you had been at the meeting the other day, where Matt Fong, the the State Treasurer of California, he was asked that very question. And you know what he said? First of all, they asked business people and risk takers, the people that use their own resources to create jobs and opportunities. They asked them what the problems are. They didn't have a blue ribbon committee that meets in the dark with a lot of political and uh union hacks. What they did was they went to the people that create the jobs and said, what is the problem? And then secondly they said, what can we in government do? And thirdly, they went ahead and did it.
[0:08:34] Sam Slom: We don't do that here. We study.
[0:08:36] Ah Quon McElrath: I love the way you talk about union hacks. Would you call people like Lepard, Johnson, all of these big uh representatives of big business, business hacks, and therefore uh in the same category as quote, union hacks? As far as I can make out, there are only two union members or maybe three union presidents who are on that particular blue ribbon panel out of what, uh 27? A membership three out of 27. That's nothing.
[0:09:04] Sam Slom: Again, you you're being so modest, AQ. You said earlier that uh the unions represent only a small proportion of the total numbers of people that are here. They may represent a small proportion in numbers, but in terms of economic and political clout, they are massive. Nothing gets passed, and nothing gets blocked unless the unions that are very active in politics, as you well know, are supportive or in opposition to it. And when I talk about the the large banks, for example, let's look at those large banks. Let's not look at them except that they made a lot of profit in the last fiscal year. A lot of that profit comes from state funds, and from hosting political fundraisers for the very candidates that are backed by...
[0:09:46] Randall Roth: Okay, we're back to the point. AQ, AQ, you've got to respond to Sam's suggestion that the unions are somehow manipulating the political world here in Hawaii, and and perhaps that'll get us into his second statement about the banks.
[0:09:59] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, I I, I'm not so worried about the fact that you call it manipulation. Until the time that we had a strong labor union, business and industry dictated the whole course of legislation in the state of Hawaii. If you're talking about balances, what's so wrong with trade unions working, people and the sole organization that represents them having some say about the direction of legislation that affects their lives.
[0:10:28] Sam Slom: Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But we're not talking about balance. We're talking about one side in power, and now another side in power, and it's the taxpayers and the families, the individuals that are suffering.
[0:10:41] Ah Quon McElrath: It's fascinating that you mention that. Oh, poor suffering families. When I think of the major legislation that has been enacted in the state of Hawaii, a good good deal of it has to do with plugging loopholes that affect working people and their families. A good deal of it has to do with uh assisting the community at large. But the very basic legislation that affect our quality of life, take for example, auto insurance. Uh, they sold us a bill of goods three years ago, 15 years reduction, right? And labor unions thought, well, this is fine. We will have a 15% reduction in our premiums. It didn't happen, and although they the insurance companies cried all the way home, in fact, they have been, according to the news reports, the most profitable insurance auto insurance companies in the entire United States.
[0:11:47] Ah Quon McElrath: So who's selling whom a bill of goods and who affects
[0:11:51] Randall Roth: I need to jump in here. No, just...
[0:11:53] Sam Slom: I'm happy I'm happy AQ got a bell.
[0:12:00] Randall Roth: I just wanted to make there's the balance you wanted. There's the balance. I just want to let anyone who tuned in late know exactly what this is. I'm sure they're wondering, I'm Randy Roth and this is The Price of Paradise radio show. We're talking about labor unions in Hawaii, and in the studio is AQ Mackereth and Sam Slom. Now's the time in the show that if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, give us a call. Our number is 955-8821. Or if you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. Watch KHON Channel 2 News tonight at 6:00 and 10:00. We've got Rod and Tone and Hans Colo, the cameraman here, recording all of this, and it should be an interesting report that they're putting together.
[0:12:43] Randall Roth: Again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. One more point before we go to callers. Sam, in your piece, you said you're not anti-union. And AQ, I'm not sure whether you want to question that or not.
[0:12:57] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, he's hedging all his bets.
[0:13:00] Randall Roth: But he says he's anti-compulsion. Um, let's find out what he means by that and then AQ, I want to hear your thoughts on it.
[0:13:07] Sam Slom: Well, this may shock AQ, but I was a member of the ILGWU in my youth. The international Ladies Garment Workers Union.
[0:13:17] Ah Quon McElrath: You operated the sewing machine.
[0:13:20] Sam Slom: No, I worked in a men's in a men's clothing manufacturing plant, and I had no choice. I didn't want to belong to the union. They forced me to belong to the union. And so what I did, AQ, I did what I'm sure that you recommend everybody does. That is, get copies of the constitution, the bylaws, the past minutes, the financial statement, and show up to the meetings, and then ask questions. And you know what? They said after a while, I didn't have to belong to it. And what I'm saying is, you should not have to force people to join things. I don't want them to join Small Business Hawaii in order to operate a business.
[0:13:51] Sam Slom: If the union is so good, if any organization is so good, then it should stand or fall on its own merits, and people should have the right to choose. Further, you mentioned the Collective Bargaining Act of 1970. And what that does is give it a winner-take-all situation, so that if both of us were in a company or in an operation, you wanted to belong to the ILWU, and I wanted to belong to the Carpenters Union, we can't do that, or teamsters, I should say. Because only one union prevails.
[0:14:18] Ah Quon McElrath: You know Sam Slom, that in fact the law provides for individuals not to join a union but to provide their portion of the union dues to what is called a service fee. They don't have to belong to the union, but after all, if that person has a grievance, the union steps up and takes care of that particular grievance of the member. But he is not a member of the union.
[0:14:44] Sam Slom: He just he or she just has to pay the union. So what I'm saying is, the union position is that people are not capable of running their own lives and making their own decisions.
[0:14:54] Ah Quon McElrath: The problem is that it has been shown an individual generally does not have the power, the capability, nor the knowledge in order to take care of his own grievance. I think if you were to read a lot of the letters coming to the editor, whether it's dear Abby or whatever it might be, a lot of individual workers who try to confront an employer finds it impossible to do so. He does not have the collective strength of a group behind him.
[0:15:30] Sam Slom: Oh, I I agree with you, but what I'm saying is there are also a number of individuals that do feel that they have that power, that do want to make choices that are different from those made forcibly by them by the union. Many of them in fact do not like the political decisions made by the union. And when they try to opt out or even to get the small pittance of their their dues back, or their service fees back as provided by law, that the unions use for political action, then what happens? The UPW as one union publishes their names in the newsletter, uh, calls them freeloaders and scabs, uh, puts their names, their places of employment, everything else.
[0:16:09] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, I think this all goes to whether or not we feel that a collective mode of life in many instances is much more to be desired. A cooperative model rather than the heavy individualistic model that has been promoted over the last 20 years, which leads to a great deal of greed.
[0:16:49] Randall Roth: Okay, I'm going to jump in here because we got a number of callers who've been waiting patiently. Let's start with Ken in Waipahu. Good morning, Ken.
[0:16:56] Caller: Good morning, how are you? Very good program today. Uh, one thing that it seemed to be, uh, that the answer wasn't quite given on this. There was a statement made that the outside forces, uh, determine the economy of Hawaii. Uh, the point was raised about sugar and how the, uh, unions have boasted of having some of the highest wages in the world, uh, in, uh, the sugar industry. Uh, could they answer directly, uh, didn't this have an effect on, uh, driving sugar out of Hawaii?
[0:17:28] Randall Roth: Uh, AQ.
[0:17:30] Ah Quon McElrath: Um, actually, the driving of sugar quote, driving, unquote, of sugar from Hawaii, uh, can be laid at the door of a number of things. One, those representatives of the Kamaaina families, who no longer felt that they were interested in running sugar plantations. I think the last example of that is Francis Morgan, who tried to save Hamakua Sugar Company. Two, the the drive for outside corporate interests to extend their influence at a time when they felt that they could, in fact, make money on sugar.
[0:19:00] Speaker 1: the feed of of organized labor.
[0:19:01] Ah Quon McElrath: Absolutely not.
[0:19:02] Speaker 1: Ken, what do you think?
[0:19:03] Caller: Well, it seems like all the decision making that's being made about whether to go to stay here, article has to do with the cost, and she suggested that decision making is is disconnected from the cost that it's the cost the high cost of the sugar didn't um uh the labor from producing sugar here, didn't have uh an influence on these decisions, made for other reasons.
[0:19:25] Speaker 1: Okay, and AQ, I'm assuming you'd say it it's a factor, but there are many, many factors.
[0:19:28] Ah Quon McElrath: Yes, absolutely.
[0:19:29] Speaker 1: Okay, let's give Sam a word and then we'll give Ken the last word, and then we'll move on. So
[0:19:32] Sam Slom: Well, in answer to Ken's question, I would say, absolutely, the union situation was a primary force in the demise of sugar. It was not only wages, it was also the cost of of benefits which were also the highest in the world. When we talk about subsidies for sugar companies and we talk about quotas, this is something absolutely that the unions supported. They supported it through our congressional delegation, they lobbied for it and everything else, which made our consumer prices the highest. I mean, we're producing sugar here, but we paid more for it as individuals. And finally, uh it was a move to protect sugar at all costs to resist economic agricultural diversification. And all of those things came together, and that's why we don't have a viable sugar industry.
[0:19:59] Speaker 1: Ken, I've got a feeling that kind of sums up your thoughts.
[0:20:12] Caller: Uh yes, very much so. I think those those quotas uh didn't weren't intended to allow the foreigners in. They were intended to prevent the foreigners in. to prevent Americans from from choosing a lower cost sugar.
[0:20:24] Ah Quon McElrath: No, that just goes to show you that the contradictions of the capitalist economy make it necessary for us to find very many different ways. And after all, trade unions are caught in the same kind of ebb and flow of what happens as you develop that particular kind of economy.
[0:20:41] Caller: Are you suggesting a communist society is better?
[0:20:44] Ah Quon McElrath: I'm not saying that. I'm just indicating that there are contradictions in the system that you've got to roll with.
[0:20:51] Speaker 1: Ken, I appreciate your call. Since you and Sam are aligned on this one, it's two to one, I'm giving AQ the last word on this particular topic. Thank, thank you.
[0:20:59] Ah Quon McElrath: I don't think this is a contest, really. I think it's it's it's a a a program that is designed to get people to look at issues in quite different ways from what they've been looking at.
[0:21:09] Speaker 1: AQ, I wish everyone I invited to be a guest on this show shared those sentiments. Let's go to Dave from Pearl City. Good morning, Dave.
[0:21:17] Caller: Yeah, uh, you know, you folks were talking about small businesses, but uh both of you, both of you folks uh didn't mention anything about small businesses losing a lot of customers due to, you know, these big wholesale and discount uh stores, like a Costco, Sam's Club, Kmart, Walmarts, Marukai, and uh, you know, people are going to go to stores that have prices that are very cheap. And, you know, that's one of the main causes that uh uh I would say that many small businesses are falling apart. Um yeah, sure. There's high rent, high labor cost, high taxes, and, you know, all all of these other problems but I also have to, we have to focus that you're also losing a lot of customers.
[0:22:02] Speaker 1: Dave, this is something that that in AQ's article in this morning's advertiser, I know she touches on it. I'm curious, what do you think it means so far as the the topic today, labor unions? What what's the impact of Walmart etc? What does that mean so far as labor unions in Hawaii is concerned?
[0:22:19] Caller: Uh well uh as far as uh uh these labor unions, yeah, I I do uh I see that uh the unions are really milking out the government and uh the people are paying, paying the government, with taxes and all that. And uh uh truly, I do not quite like uh the unions, but I I I in some instances, I don't like privatization in certain areas.
[0:22:49] Speaker 1: Okay, tell you what, I think we've got about three different topics on the table, and AQ I'm gonna let you pick which one you want to grab and run with. We've got the the big retailers for example, the Costcos, etc. Um, we've got uh government worker unions and and how they fit uh into this whole thing. And then there was a third one, privatization. Uh and they're all related of course, but why don't you pick one of them and uh tell us what you think.
[0:23:13] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, uh, let's talk about um uh uh big businesses such as Costco. In all of the discussions, there is very little allusion to the fact that small business, of which Sam is a representative, fail simply because they cannot compete with large discount stores. I was looking at some of the um bankruptcy figures and it's very interesting that in 1993, there were 306 bankruptcies. With, however, 815 new businesses were started that year. In 1994, 258 bankruptcies of small business, but 1,060 new businesses were started. In 1995, 270 bankruptcies with 1,350 new businesses started. Now, what we have to ask is this: in a small community such as Hawaii, with 43,000 corporations, 7,000 um uh partnerships and 75,000 proprietorships, is there room, for example, for competition, which is after all the code word, for a capitalist economy to really flourish. It it apparently is extremely difficult for small businesses to compete with large businesses, and invariably small businesses close up shop. The interesting thing about this situation is that most of the bankruptcies are individual bankruptcies. Uh, because people don't have enough money, they can't manage their finances.
[0:25:00] Speaker 1: But, but, AQ, what is what is this mean so far as labor unions are concerned? How does it impact that?
[0:25:05] Ah Quon McElrath: The impact is that a lot of people are blaming labor unions for a bad business climate, which is alluded to in Sam's article, uh, in this morning's paper. Actually, it is not. It is because the nature of the growth of the economy is such that one, uh, you can't exist. If you, if you charge a dollar for a particular product and Costco is able to charge 50 cents, how can you possibly compete with the huge volume of a Costco if you are a mom-and-pop store at the corner of Hunakai and whatever?
[0:25:46] Speaker 1: And I've got a feeling that Sam doesn't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you've said, but I think, Sam, you probably would focus back on on government worker unions and and the impact on laws?
[0:25:57] Sam Slom: Well, the the point is that the government worker unions have increased the costs of government. They've increased the taxes. They've lowered the take home pay and discretionary income of individuals. They have pressed for regulations and changes in in social legislation, all of which represent a cost to these small businesses. Big box realtors are not the enemy here. The cost of government, the cost of doing business in Hawaii is and the fact that uh you know, its prices, not only prices that somebody goes to another place for, but it's also selection and competition and flexibility. But let me answer AQ's last comment, how can a mom-and-pop compete? If the costs had been in line, if there had been a level playing field in this state, mom-and-pop's compete on one thing and one thing only, and that is service. They provide service, they provide a a loyal clientele with something that no big-box retailer or anybody from the outside can do. But the big-box retailers have strong, long capital and they can take loss lead leaders in a market, and that's what they've done over here.
[0:26:58] Ah Quon McElrath: Except that it seems that even mom-and-pops can't really exist. I I I remember
[0:27:03] Sam Slom: At some point, they can't because the costs overtake them. And that's what's happening now. Exactly.
[0:27:07] Ah Quon McElrath: And and I read all of the stories about here, this I'm wearing a t-shirt. Hasegawa on on my Hasagawa General Store? Yes. Exactly and and Arakawa's and a lot of little stores that have been written up in the newspapers, not only because the mom-and-pops are getting older, but also because they very openly and frankly say they can't compete with the large ones. Now you talk about the fact that it costs a a a lot uh the business climate here in the state of Hawaii. I'm taking a look at some of the the the information that has been given out. Individuals, for example, between the year 1992 and 1993, received an increase of only 3.8%. No, their taxes rather, increased 3.8%. On the other hand, corporations in the same period had a decrease of 27% in their taxes, which and I'm sure that the ones who are getting uh uh rich are not the individual worker. It is the people who, with a large growth in personal income in the form of dividends and interest have made up a large But AQ, Dave was talking about small business and let's stick with small business, which is 98% of the total business mix in this state. And they're not getting rich, and their bottom line did not go up. If anything, it went down. They don't have the write offs that the banks and the regulated and subsidized industries have. They're the ones that are individual mom-and-pops also. And they're the ones that, for the period of 1984 to 1994, created two out of every three jobs in this community, and 65% of all the personal income. And they're the ones that are saying they're hurting, because of the costs, because of the regulations.
[0:28:51] Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump in and give Dave the last word on this. Dave, are you still there?
[0:28:54] Caller: Well, as far as, you know, if wholesale and discount stores are uh really stealing all the customers away from small businesses, I don't want them to leave Hawaii because you know, I like to shop over there. That's what it comes down to things that are very cheap. But uh as far as Costco, you know, uh it it is a choice of people because you have to purchase membership cards and you have to purchase in quantities and certain items uh uh is not have, doesn't have the best qualities, like casual clothing, but that's what people buy usually. But uh as far as the other stores, you have the Sam's Club that you don't have to purchase membership cards and discount the other discount stores like Kmart and Walmart that's
[0:29:45] Ah Quon McElrath: a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance, the unions a grievance
[0:30:30] Caller: picking lot, but uh overall, I I don't want them to leave Hawaii and uh, although we get a pro problems with them or high taxes or whatever, uh, I would just say to myself that, you know, uh uh I like to, you know, live in Hawaii with uh low cost of living and, and you know, there's ways uh uh to live in Hawaii with uh uh uh cheaper ways of living like buying things on sale or whatever.
[0:31:01] Speaker 1: Dave, I'm I'm gonna have to move on 'cause I've got some people who've been waiting. Really appreciate your call this morning. If you tuned in late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're talking about labor unions in Hawaii. In the studio is Aqua Mackerath and Sam Slome. If you'd like to get in line to ask a question or make a comment, we do have a couple lines open. The number is 955-8821. On a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late and you'd like to hear the show in its entirety, tonight at 8:00, go to 1380 AM on your radio dial, that's KIFO and you'll be able to hear the show in its entirety. Um Jeff our director of operations, I'm going to take the calls a little bit out of order. We've had a couple people on oh, I can't do that. Okay. We've had a couple people on Sam's side, and I see that we have Greg from Kapolei who is an HGEA member and uh maybe he'll give uh a voice to uh what uh AQ is representing here. Can we go to Greg? Good morning, Greg.
[0:32:03] Caller: Good morning. Um Greg from Kapolei and I am a member of HGEA, I'm also on the negotiating team and I'm proud of it.
[0:32:09] Speaker 1: Greg, tell our listeners what HGEA stands for and and give us some examples of of who would be members of that particular union.
[0:32:18] Caller: Okay, HGEA means Hawaii Government Employees Association. We are the ones who um are the primary civil service employees and we are in departments like um um human services, which is welfare and um department of transportation, department of health, and things of that nature. Okay?
[0:32:39] Speaker 1: Okay.
[0:32:40] Caller: And um, what I want to direct my question to is since to Sam Slom, because I think it's really insidious the some of the things he says about, you know, government employee unions. Mr. Slom, if a person doesn't want to um participate in the political uh part of the union, they can get their their service uh portion back at the end of the year, if they request it. So they're not forced in any way.
[0:33:06] Sam Slom: Well, I mentioned they can and and what I said was that in the case of the UPW, all the people that had requested that, their names had been written in the UPW newsletter and they were called freeloaders and scabs.
[0:33:17] Caller: Mr. Slom, HGEA doesn't do that.
[0:33:19] Speaker 1: Well, I mentioned UPW.
[0:33:21] Caller: Okay, well you in the context context, you presented that, it sounds like all government unions do that. Okay, so be very clear about what you're saying, okay.
[0:33:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought I was, Greg, but thank you for the correction.
[0:33:32] Caller: The other thing too, Mr. Slom, that I want to direct that, it's like why is in the Hawaii Visitors Bureau, okay, and in since inception, it's supposed to be a 50/50 proposition between the the state and the private sector, okay, but now that's 80% funded by, you know, uh, the uh tax money, okay? Why is that happening, okay? Why are and also, the Hawaii Visitors Bureau and the hotel industry have been pushing for years for the convention center. Who paid that? The taxpayers.
[0:34:02] Speaker 1: Greg, this is, this is Randy Roth. Now let me ask your question. Are you, are you bringing this up because you're suggesting that that the unions don't control political decisions?
[0:34:12] Caller: Precisely. I mean, the the amount of, you know, you know, influence that Mr. Slom is projecting is is I think it's really overstated, okay? And um, to lay all this blame about the economic problems in the state on the unions is is is so insidious and and it's very untrue and the numbers don't back him up.
[0:34:31] Speaker 1: So you would agree with AQ that that really we've got more of a balance here?
[0:34:35] Caller: It's more, it's more of a balance. It's more of a complex question and, and you can point all the fingers you want, but we're all in this together, and we all have to come to, you know, together with solutions, and not lay blame on individuals in terms of the unions. Another thing too is, when the, if you read the paper other day about the different department like Department of Education and Department of Human Services has saved the states some money, okay? And that's because the workers have been working, you know, we have been doing working our okoles, you know, to, to be more efficient and more diligent, okay? And that is is has trans, you know, into into savings for the state, okay? And this is, and I and many of our our our our our union members are very loyal and very dedicated workers.
[0:35:21] Speaker 1: Greg, let me let me give Sam an opportunity to respond to that and then AQ to add anything she'd like to add and then I'm going to give you the last word and then we'll move on to our other callers. Sam Slom.
[0:35:30] Sam Slom: Okay, thanks, Greg. Uh just a couple points. Uh you're you seem to be hung up on the Hawaii Visitors Bureau and and some of those subsidies. And uh you should be uh surprised, I guess, to find out that uh I'm absolutely on your side about that. By the way, the uh HVB is subsidized by more than 90% of taxpayer funds. I've been a very strong and vocal critic about that. I've been a strong and vocal critic about the Convention Center. I have voted against it. I urged its uh sale and privatization, but none of these things would have happened without union support in the legislature, not one of them. The unions have lobbied for increased funding for the HVB, for the industry. Uh they were all for the convention center, and this is a a fact of life that we have to live through right now. I have always said that if you're talking about ending subsidies, it means not only in the area of welfare, but also for business subsidies as well. Um, as far as laying blame, I'm not laying blame, I'm saying that we have to be accountable for what we do. The unions have tried to take credit for what happened immediately after statehood here, for the economic development and growth that we had immediately after 1959. If they want to take credit for that, they also have to assume the responsibility for some of the other things that have happened in the in the last 20 years particularly. So, it is a question. You're absolutely right. We're all in this together. And that's why when Randy said he's looking for callers on Sam's side, it's really not a question of Sam's side or AQ's side, it's a question of are we going to solve our problems? Uh why are we the only state in the Union that is continuing to languish after 7 years? Why is everybody else doing better? That is something that union workers need to know because I gotta tell you, Greg, a number of union families also operate small businesses, and some of them are members of my organization.
[0:37:15] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, it seems to me that that that while we don't want to lay blame at anyone's door, I think we need to take a look at the nature of our political economy and what it is that we can do about it. I happen to feel very pessimistic about where we're going. I don't feel that we are in a position to compete, except in a few areas of exportation of um, uh educational resources and those kinds of things, and and certain kinds of research, which the university has been able to do very well. I I just do not think that in the nature
[0:38:00] Speaker 1: the development of economic forces that we can do a lot about competing with others. I think what we need to do is take a completely different look at where we go in the future. Can, in fact, Hawaii, uh, uh, produce all of the food that its need that it needs per Henry Walker, who said that we could do it on 5,000 acres of land and with all of the release of sugar lands, pineapple lands, work also along another model, which is to make ourselves not only self-sufficient, but competitive with the other land that is available to us, so that, in fact, we can export goods, uh, not entirely services.
[0:38:48] Speaker 2: Okay, Greg, from Kapa A, you've got the last word and for anyone who tuned in the last few minutes, Greg is with the HGEA, he's on the negotiating team. Greg, you've got the last word.
[0:38:57] Caller: Well, I just want to again, you know, reiterate the fact that um uh in terms of what we were talking about, we were talking about, you know, government and private, you know, or uh private unions, okay? And it kind of like mixing the apples and oranges up together, you know? In in terms of Sam Sloan because you know, you talked about the HVE, the thing and everything about the convention center. That was, you know, the private, you know, unions and then and they're, you know, taking this whole thing together and then on some things saying the you know, it's the fault of public, you know, employee union. So, you know, make it clear as to what you're talking about, okay? Because uh uh the public, you know, employee unions didn't have anything to do with that that that that that particular situation in terms of in terms of the convention center, okay? So, um you know, differentiating and and uh not just, you know, make it a cover blanket statement saying that unions are responsible for all this that and the other thing, okay?
[0:39:52] Speaker 2: Okay, Greg, I really appreciate your calling. Um for listener's sake, uh you know, I I did invite a number of of leaders of various unions to to be on this show and um uh for whatever reason and and AQ, if you'd like to comment on that or Greg, that that would be fine, but obviously the two of you believe in this kind of dialogue and and I appreciate your participation this morning.
[0:40:13] Caller: Well, I just want to say one last thing, the unions are what make Hawaii strong.
[0:40:17] Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you, Greg. Uh, let's go to Lloyd from Waikiki. Good morning, Lloyd.
[0:40:21] Caller: Yes, aloha. Uh, first of all, I'm very tickled to see someone who can stand up to slam Sam Sloan's attitudes and the way he speaks. Uh, he flusters most people. This gal, he's not flustering at all, and I would hate to see this um Hawaii go back to where it was in the dark ages when the sugar and all the other people did not have a union, and let's not kid ourselves. These large corporations, especially casting and cook, are not interested in sugar and and pineapple. They're interested in land development, especially on Oahu, and I think that we better take a close look at what these companies are trying to do, uh like the first of all they started it in the Lanai by completely dis uh completely uh doing away with the pineapple and started building their large resorts on there. Remember, this is an island. These are all islands and we can't fill it all up with uh development uh for the next couple or three 400 years or we'll have no Aloha here on this on the in the Hawaii at all.
[0:41:20] Speaker 2: Lloyd, let let me give uh Sam Slome, who if you've correctly identified is one of two very strong personalities in uh in the studio this morning. Uh Sam, any thoughts to what you're hearing from Lloyd?
[0:41:32] Sam Slom: Well, yes, first of all, I try not to fluster anybody and I certainly I couldn't fluster AQ because she's been around here doing this longer than I have.
[0:41:39] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, I'm a hell of a lot older than you too. So that's right. And we've AQ and I have gone around the block a number of times together and I think we have mutual respect for each other.
[0:41:49] Sam Slom: But Lloyd, uh, you know, I hear people always saying this, we don't want to go back to the dark ages. I I don't think you're that old either, that you've been in the dark ages, Lloyd, and I don't hear anybody talking about going back. Uh, AQ was just saying that she's very pessimistic about the future. I'm very optimistic about the future. The difference is that I'm an entrepreneur. Uh, people that know how to take together a land and and labor and resources to for, you know, for a product and for opportunities are very optimistic people. The problem is that we have made it so difficult here that we don't have any future that we're looking at. And everybody is wallowing around in the problems that we have right now. The only answer seems to be more of the same and I'm saying let's cut out of that mold. Let's look for opportunities, but let's listen to the people that are willing to take the accountability and responsibility for themselves and to make changes. Change, Lloyd, that's the whole thing. If you want to keep the status quo that we've got right now, we're going to continue to decline and continue to fall behind and I think all of us that live here recognize that our standard of living has declined. That's what we should all be working on to improve.
[0:42:52] Speaker 2: AQ, you want to say something or should we throw it back to Lloyd? Your choice.
[0:42:56] Ah Quon McElrath: No, I I think there's absolutely uh no um comment and no no uh denying the fact that if you want to do something, supposedly, you can do it, but the nature of the situation is that you can't. Who is going to be able, for example, to buy a home at $250,000 if the minimum wage is $5.25 and if the average personal income in the state of Hawaii is what? 24,000 or 25,000, I forget what it is. I mean, the monthly payments alone will drown you. So it seems to me that kind of optimism uh that you have because you've already got it, is not the optimism that others can share.
[0:43:43] Speaker 2: But AQ, if if businesses can't afford to pay enough that people can live the sort of lifestyle that that you would aspire to, what what is the answer?
[0:43:53] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, it seems to me that maybe that kind of lifestyle lifestyle isn't the kind that we should aspire to.
[0:43:59] Speaker 2: So changing the economy and changing our our approach to more of a sustainability.
[0:44:04] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, I it seems to me that certainly in the state of Hawaii, we have to look at a sustainable economy. And what is that sustainable economy? I would hope that the so-called secret task force will at least look into that particular subject. Yeah, but wait wait, I I I've got to comment on that for just a minute because you say, you know, first of all, you said I've got it, I've made it. First of all, I'm I'm in debt like everybody else, paying for a house that I can't afford to to live here to stay here to educate my child.
[0:44:33] Sam Slom: Yeah, but where do you move, right? Do you go to Las Vegas? Do you go to Seattle? Do you go to Portland? Pitch a tent at Maku.
[0:44:38] Speaker 2: Well, then you get evicted by the state. Listen, that's fun, that's You're saying, you're saying that people shouldn't aspire to that. Your union brothers and sisters have aspired to it, and now they have mortgages and now they have problems with sending their children to private school and putting food on the table, and they are suffering just like the rest of us. That's why I say there's no different. The common denominator is that the costs that have been driven up by compulsory unionization in this state affect everybody and reduce our disposable income. It's not compulsory unionism, it's the drive for profit and for power that has driven up the entire cost for everyone. When I consider the fact that there has been a 37% or 38% increase in personal income because of the increase in dividends and interest, I take a look at the all of the mergers that have taken place, I take a look at all of the paper transactions that have taken place, which, in fact, have increased those who have money as well as those who don't have money. I'm going to go back that is the unfairness of the situation that you're talking about.
[0:45:49] Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to Lloyd from Waikiki, who started this interesting conversation. Lloyd, you can have the final word on it, and then we'll move on.
[0:45:56] Caller: Well, I just think that we should definitely keep the Aloha spirit in mind in all of our all of our dealings, because this is a very spiritual thing, and I think uh what we should look upon is not try to make ourselves another model of uh the United States as or the mainland, as we call it. Uh we we have a different circumstance here. We have we have a very close knit uh community here, even though it's very large, and we have a lot of people who who have that feeling and I just don't like to see people going in and forgetting that we still have that Aloha spirit, so that's the main thing.
[0:46:27] Speaker 2: Lloyd, thank you. Thank you for your call this morning. Thank you. I appreciate your program today. It's excellent. Okay. And I might just say for anyone listening to this lively and informed dialogue, that's our goal and I think this morning we've got it. Uh I just want to make sure you all realize that uh the people in this studio, the three of us have a lot of Aloha for one another, uh a lot of as Sam mentioned mutual respect, uh AQ, um uh I don't want to get started talking about my feelings Are you crying? Oh almost. There are tears in our eyes. I almost. When do the Bishop of State Trustees? No, no, no, this uh this is an interesting crew we've got this morning. I'm going to start calling this the the the AQ and Sam show. We go to John from Akiki. Good morning, John.
[0:47:08] Caller: Good morning Randy. Two quick points. Number one, listeners squibble over little things. They're going to pay paradise and put up a parking lot, that's a fact. Secondly, what's missing in this town, like every other town, they have lack of innovators. You get the same old horse pushing the same old wagon right around in circles.
[0:47:29] Speaker 2: John, are are you in agreement with Sam's comments about 5 minutes ago about entrepreneurs and how the deck in Sam's opinion is stacked against entrepreneurs in Hawaii?
[0:47:39] Caller: Big fish are big fish, no matter what they color. What what's that? Big fish are big fish, no matter what they color. You call it business, you call it unions, it's all the same smell. They all act the one thing and that's money. Money drives and that money philosophy is what the lady just said about you can buy a house.
[0:47:58] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. AQ, does that on track with what you were saying earlier about greed being at the core of capitalism and that being at the core of our problems?
[0:48:06] Ah Quon McElrath: Well, that's more or less what has happened, especially since the 1980s, uh when Reagan was president and cut taxes, and yet we ended up with the largest national debt because of that. Um and it's not an easily measurable um phenomenon, but we do know that people love to have a hell of a lot more than they need. I keep thinking, I used to tell my doctor friends, you can only drive one Jaguar at a time, you can only wear one Italian suit at a time, you can only wear one pair of shoes at a time. What's with you?
[0:48:49] Speaker 2: John, I think you've got an ally here and Sam, anything Yeah we're all allies. The problem is we're all facing a different enemy. Yeah, John, let me just say one thing. As critical as I've been of of government and of compulsory unionization, I have said that one of the real problems here is lack of vision, lack of innovation by business leaders. You're absolutely right. It's the same people we keep dragging them out, they haven't had a new idea and in fact, many of them don't even compete themselves. They go to the government and they vote for a living rather than work for a living. So you're absolutely right. People should have innovation and innovators reach their own hands and their own pockets and take the risks.
[0:50:23] Speaker 2: John, thanks for your call. Appreciate it. We go to Eric from Pearl City. Good morning, Eric.
[0:50:28] Caller: Hello. Uh the comment I wanted to make was uh regarding the the big uh discount stores and the mom and pop stores. Uh why wouldn't it be possible for the mom and pop stores to get together so that they can buy in bulk and then compete with the other big discount houses?
[0:50:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, let let's take that as a comment unless one of my guests wants to. Well, let me let me just say Eric that uh certainly they can do that except that one of the hallmarks of mom and pops has always been their individuality. And AQ is mentioning our as before. One of the reasons that our is shut down was that they ran out of family members to run it or who wanted to run it, but the other reason was because the nature of the community and particularly the sugar industry changed so dramatically uh as one of our earlier callers said, uh he goes and shops at Costco or or Sam's uh Sam's place, Walmart and all of that. They have provided diversity, they have provided a lot of things that people in Hawaii have not had before and that's the nature of business. If you're in business, you have to assume the the competition, but there are still a number of very viable small businesses that are able to compete because they have a unique niche within the economy.
[0:51:44] Speaker 2: Eric, thanks for your call. Thank you. We move on to Arthur from the Windward side. Good morning, Arthur.
[0:51:50] Caller: Yeah, good morning. Um I think that Sam is uh talking about you need innovation and stuff like that, but I don't think he's very innovative either, because most jobs destroy the resource base that they're based on. And we're on a finite land mass here, and and you really see it here more than you do in the mainland, because we're on a finite land mass and most jobs destroy the resource base. It's based on growth economics, and it's not sustainable. It has to they should be green, jobs should be green. Okay. And what do you think about that? Um, I'll tell you what, Arthur, I'm afraid that's going to push us off our topic of labor unions. I'm going to take that as a comment.
[0:52:11] Caller: Labor unions are still perpetuating the same growth economic thing. See, they're going along with the same game plan. I hear you, and and and Aqua, and I think as as said, some real similar things. Yeah. I appreciate your call. Yeah, bye. Thank you, Arthur.
[0:57:00] Speaker 1: at rag call time or US news and world report and you'll find that every state in the Union has problems, whether it is a state controlled or county controlled.
[0:57:10] Speaker 2: That's true that every state has problems, but people are leaving our state despite the Aloha spirit, despite the compulsory unionization and that's why I insist that we are not better off and we better sit down together in open forum and open rooms and solve these problems and find alternatives so people can be accountable.
[0:57:29] Speaker 1: You ignored my bell.
[0:57:30] Speaker 2: Oh was that your bell Randy? I'm sorry.
[0:57:32] Speaker 1: We're down, I thought it was a dinner bell. Here comes the stampede. All of the cows coming home.
[0:57:37] Speaker 2: You've each got 20 seconds tops to sum it up Sam quickly 20 seconds. We have a great state, we have tremendous individuals hard working women and men individuals that will make a difference in this community. More people have to take an active role and make civic responsibility part of their everyday life.
[0:57:58] Ah Quon McElrath: Trade unions are still the only way by which workers, both men and women can take a measure of control over their working conditions and in fact, not go back to the old days when they had to grovel in order to get food to eat, send their kids to school or to even participate in the political process.
[0:58:20] Speaker 3: Folks, there you have it. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. That's AQ Macarath, who's been very active in labor over a very long period of time. Currently, she's on the board of Regents at the University of Hawaii and Sam Slom, who's headed up small business Hawaii for a long time and currently is in addition to heading that up in the state legislature. We've been talking about labor unions. The Price of Paradise shows. Producer is Susie Roth. Hawaii Public Radio's director of operations is Jeff Ilardi. Watch tonight at 6:10. KHON channel 2 news. Rod Antone and Hans Colo, the cameraman have been down here and they're going to be doing a show. We hope you'll tune that in.
[0:59:00] Speaker 3: Also, if you have access to the internet, go to www.popweb.org and you can tap into a an internet conversation on this same topic. Next week we've got a show I think you're going to enjoy. We're calling it Dueling Historians. We're going to put historians back to back, tell them to take 20 paces and then start shooting holes in each other's statement of historical facts and interpretations. Oh, I'm kidding about that. But we have Thurston Twig Smith that some people will see on one side of this issue and Daviana McGregor that some people will see on the other side of the issue. They're two people I admire a lot who have a lot to say about what happened at the time of the overthrow and what it all means. They don't agree with each other on an awful lot of issues and I personally think those of us who can sit in and listen on, listen to them talk about it are going to learn a great deal from it.
[0:59:51] Speaker 3: Again, you've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.