Legalized Gambling
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-10-08
Guests: Linda Lingle (Mayor of Maui); Joe Souki (Speaker, Hawaii House of Representatives); Steve Alm (U.S. Attorney); Joseph Toy (CPA); David Carey (President, Outrigger); Bill Eadington (Director, Institute for the Study of Gambling)
Duration: 1:05:00

[00:00:02] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of Pop Radio. We're live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7, and then replayed at 8:00 in the evening on KIFO. That's 1380 AM. This program is the product of volunteers who bring pop radio to you because they enjoy it and because they believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. And I need to take a little break and tell our technicians that we can't hear a thing through the earphones in here. Okay, there we go. It wouldn't be possible without the wholehearted support of Hawaii Public Radio and the Hawaii Community Foundation. The foundation manages permanent charitable funds for the benefit of local charitable activities and does so with both compassion and efficiency. Our topic today is legalized gambling, and with me in the studio, I have Joseph Toy and Steve Alm. With us by phone, I have David Carey, Bill Edington, and Linda Crocket Lingle. We'll just start with Dave Carey. He is the president, CEO of Outrigger Enterprises, that's the owner of Outrigger Hotels and Resorts, the largest, most diversified hotel chain in Hawaii. David has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Stanford, a law degree, and an MBA from Santa Clara, and David, I might add is an active soccer player. He and his entire family are very much into soccer, and in fact, his wife was my son's soccer coach for a couple of years. Joseph Toy is a CPA and director of Cooper's and Lybrand's hospitality consulting services group, and as such is responsible for tourism and hospitality consulting in Hawaii and the Asia-Pacific region. He's the past president of the Pacific Asia Travel Association, Hawaii chapter, and has lectured at the University of Hawaii School of Travel Industry Management, plus HPU and Chaminade. Bill Edington is a professor of economics and director of the Institute for the Study of Gambling and Commercial Gaming at the University of Nevada, Reno. He has written and edited many articles and books. Some of his recent books include Indian Gaming and the Law, that was written in 1990; Gaming and Public Policy in 1991; Gambling and Commercial Gaming in 1992, and Gambling Behavior and Problem Gambling in 1993. He's been a visiting professor at Harvard Center for Addiction Studies and also at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. Linda Crocket Lingle is the mayor of Maui County and has been since 1990. She served on the Maui County Council for 10 years prior to that. She has a degree in journalism from California State University, Northridge. Her resume includes many activities and accomplishments. I'll just mention one of each. As an activity, she's a member of the Maui Masters Swim Club, and an accomplishment is that she recently switched Maui to a budget based on goals and objectives that measure results. This year, she received the Government Finance Officers Association distinguished budget presentation award for her work in that regard. And then finally, Steve Alm is in the studio, and Steve has been the US attorney for the District of Hawaii for about one year. Prior to that, and for many years, he was a deputy prosecuting attorney, and then director of the District and Family Court Division for the prosecutor's office. He served as an adjunct professor at the University of Hawaii School of Law. He has a master's degree in education from Oregon as well as a law degree from McGeorge. Well, to everyone on the phone and here in the studio, all five of you, good morning.
[00:03:45] Speaker 1: Good morning. Morning. Morning.
[00:03:47] Randall Roth: Uh and I might explain that a couple of our guests on the phone uh can hear everything, but they can't just jump into the conversation at will, and so periodically, I'm going to ask for their thoughts on what they've been listening to. Bill Edington is is the one uh telephone guest who can jump in from time to time, but again, the others I'll just have to uh ask for their thoughts from time to time. We also uh hope to have uh representative Joe Suki with us by phone a little bit later in the show, and uh we'll get to that perhaps in about 10 or 15 minutes. Well those of you who are familiar with the way we normally do things, we're going to spend about 10 or 15 minutes letting our guests get their primary thoughts out on the table. And then, I will encourage calls and I'll ask people to to ask a question or make a comment and when I do that, I will emphasize as I am now, that we'd like you to try to keep it short, especially with so many guests. We're going to try to keep those comments and questions short so that we can let our guests really get into this topic. One reading the newspaper gets the impression that the primary thing driving the conversation right now is the current budget crisis and the notion that perhaps legalized gambling could somehow solve, or at least help us solve the budget crisis. There may be some other positive things to say about it, and we're going to get to that in in just a moment. But first, I thought I would go to Linda Lingle on Maui and ask Linda, just real briefly, why is it that you are opposed to legalizing any form of gambling in Hawaii?
[00:05:45] Linda Lingle: Randy, I think it's clear that legalized gambling in Hawaii would hurt the state of Hawaii forever, and it would hurt the people here. Secondarily, there has been no cost-benefit analysis done on legalizing gambling. And by that, I mean, we haven't really looked at what are the positive and negative impacts of legalizing gambling in Hawaii. We know clearly the negative impacts that have been experienced elsewhere, both on the social side and on the economic side. Socially, legalized gambling means it's going to increase criminal activity, and I know that Steve Arm will speak clearly to that. In the economic side, we know that it's going to hurt small businesses, as it has done elsewhere. And even though we know what is going to occur, what we don't know is what the real impact will be on additional revenues for the state. The legislature says that's the reason we need to look at legalized gambling, and yet there is no proof that revenues will actually increase, and in fact, more cost may be created than revenues. So in my opinion, it would be irresponsible of the legislature to move forward with legalized gambling without first understanding the consequences of that action.
[00:06:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I know the uh state legislative reference bureau in 1994 issued a study where they said it would be prudent to continue the debate about legalized gambling only after potential economic impacts have been studied. So presumably, that's going to be done, don't you think, Linda?
[00:07:13] Linda Lingle: Well, I certainly think it's something that should be done. But I think the small business community, Randy, needs to realize the tremendous negative impact it's going to have on them, because any economist will tell you there's only so much money in the pot, and legalizing gambling may redistribute revenue in Hawaii, but it does not, in my opinion, generate any new money. Because unlike a place like Las Vegas, where people go there specifically because they have gambling, people are not going to come to Hawaii simply because there is gambling here. So any money they spend on gambling is going to be money they don't spend going to a luau or taking a helicopter ride or buying an aloha shirt. And in that sense, small businesses will really be hurt, and they need to understand and recognize and mobilize against legalized gambling.
[00:07:59] Randall Roth: Okay. Linda, stay on the line. Again, you're not going to be able to speak until I I invite you to because of the limitations of our equipment here. But uh we appreciate Well that's hard for a politician, Randy, but I'll hold on. Thank you very much. You've got a kindred soul here in the studio. Uh Steve Alm, I think has been nodding in his agreement with most if not everything that Linda said. And so Steve, maybe you could pick up on the theme of of why we shouldn't be legalizing gambling. And then we're going to go to Joseph and David and get their thoughts on perhaps why we should or at least maybe ought to keep an open mind, and then we'll see what uh Bill Edington from the mainland has to say about the whole thing. Steve.
[00:08:37] Steve Alm: Thank you, Randy. I don't think there's any question that legalizing gambling here would change Hawaii as we all know it. And one of the ways it will change it is it will increase crime. It will increase crime both in people who are trying to commit crime in order to continue gambling or to pay their gambling debts. It will also increase organized criminal activity in relation to that. Even if you try to set up a gaming commission to that is clean and to run the gambling operations, you still, which is a which is no mean feat, you still are going to have the problem of organized criminal infiltration of the support services that go on, as well as the victimization of the gamblers themselves.
[00:09:21] Randall Roth: Let me read something to you that you wrote not long ago for the advertiser that uh had a an impact on me. It says, two of three pathological gamblers commit crimes to pay gambling debts to continue gambling, or both. The American Insurance Institute estimates that 40% of all white-collar crime is related to legal and illegal gambling. Recently, we have seen, and I guess this is in Hawaii, a county treasurer, a police sergeant, a bank assistant manager, and the executive secretary of a State Commission, who have all been convicted of felony offenses, and who all have significant gambling debts and losses. I hadn't put all of that together. Evidently, gambling is, at least in your opinion, very much at the root of an awful lot of white-collar crime, even though maybe the headlines talk about embezzlement, at the root is gambling.
[00:10:11] Steve Alm: Well, for a lot of the situations, it's true. Mary Moore was just sentenced this past week to more than five years in federal prison for a a woman in her late 60s who has access to money through her work, gambling was one of the things she was spending that hundreds of thousands of dollars on in in order to do that.
[00:10:31] Randall Roth: Probably a very nice person who got caught up in something. Absolutely. One of these compulsive gamblers we hear about, read about, maybe some of us are, if That's right and the more opportunities there are in Hawaii if gambling were legal, you would have an entire segment of the population exposed to gambling, who right now would not go down to Chinatown and participate in an illegal gambling game, but who otherwise, if they're exposed to it, might start to do it. Right now gambling between people playing poker, gambling on football games, that's not illegal here in Hawaii. It's when you introduce a house into it, that it causes the problems. So the police right now don't have problems with things like that. It's when there's is a house involved, that it leads to that. Okay, well that sounds absolutely terrible, but obviously, we've just heard one side of the story. Uh let's hear the other side. And and first, let's go to David Carey, who's on the line. David is the president, CEO of Outrigger Enterprises. And if listeners out there haven't seen your morning paper, if you take a look at the focus section, page B3, you'll see a series of articles, one of which is is by David Carey. And I don't know if I would say it's uh it's supporting gambling, but it's supporting keeping an open mind about gambling. David, are you there? I am. What do you think of what you've been listening to and and all of this in the context of of why do you think we should be having this conversation about the possibility of legalizing gambling?
[00:11:55] David Carey: Well you know, you the the the one of the challenges, there were some comments made by Linda about what impact it has on business. And, you know, the the experience of a number of the gaming destinations that I've looked at around the country is that business has prospered, although it may look different after than it looked before. Uh so that's that's sort of one comment I would make. I think the the thing that we've focused on with our visitor industry perspective is the desire to remain competitive as an overall destination. In other words, we it wasn't our idea necessarily in Hawaii to have a proliferation of gaming as an entertainment vehicle across the country, and yet it is. Uh the the people love it. The customers are are going to gaming destinations in record numbers. In fact, there are lots of studies out there that show that people taking a trip for gaming reasons, not necessarily the exclusive reason, but or at least as an amenity, is growing rapidly. Uh and we also are faced with international competition, two of our biggest competitors, Australia and New Zealand, have gotten into the fray. And of course, the growing markets of Asia are also looking at it. So I I look at it to a certain extent as a defensive mechanism for to make sure that our visitor industry is as competitive as it can be. Mhm. And yet I think if we were to do something here in Hawaii, we obviously have to do it differently than some other places. I think people have the vision of Atlantic City or Las Vegas, but in fact that those models would be inappropriate, and we ought to be looking at something more what might be described as the Monte Carlo model or what has been done in Australia and New Zealand, and keep it focused on just another thing to do or as I like to describe an amenity for the customer as opposed to a driver for a visit here.
[00:13:34] Randall Roth: Well there's certainly a demand for it. I'm looking at a headline right now that appeared in the paper not long ago, that gambling's take in the United States hit $36 billion last year, a lot of demand for it. Um well let's shift over to Joseph Toy in the studio. Uh Joseph, I know you wrote something for the advertiser not long ago a few months ago. And uh you were suggesting something along the lines of what David was saying that as an amenity to stay competitive, even if we're not bringing additional people here, if it's keeping us from losing the folks that we're getting right now. So you were what I would describe as supportive of at least continuing this conversation, but also what caught my eye in your article was that Cooper and Lybrand evidently has surveyed the people to see whether generally speaking, the community is in support of or in opposition of the notion of legalized gambling in Hawaii. What'd you find?
[00:14:26] Joseph Toy: Well we found that the population in Hawaii was was definitely uh had very strong opinions. Either they're very very much against or very much opposed to it with a slight majority about 42% of four for legalized gaming. Now, the interesting thing about that survey was that we had 19% that were deemed neutral. And of that 19%, um they were actually fairly open to gaming, but because they had such concerns over the social impacts and that those weren't being addressed by the proposals uh being put forth, that they uh basically remained neutral at this time.
[00:15:00] Randall Roth: Mhm. Okay, well I want to come back to that. Uh Steve Alm has a comment and then I want to go to our professor on the mainland. Steve Alm?
[00:15:08] Steve Alm: Yeah, I I would like to point out that the the poll I've seen in the paper was from the last legislative session where in a survey of registered voters 57% were opposed in the survey, and 37% were in favor.
[00:15:22] Randall Roth: Okay now, that's a survey different from the one that Joseph Toy is referring to. Is that the sort of difference Joseph that you would expect from survey to survey because they're not at the same time and they're not asking the exact same questions or do you think that that's an indication that there's a shift going on because you described a situation where there wasn't as much opposition as what uh Steve has just referred to.
[00:15:45] Joseph Toy: Yes, our survey actually came out after that that survey that was published in the Bulletin, and that bullet I believe that was run by the Star Bulletin, uh the survey. In any event, um I I do think that there was some shifting uh in the fact that there was more information that was being disseminated out to the public. Okay. Um ours was a scientific survey. We had about 550 adults um throughout the state uh that was surveyed on this on this particular survey.
[00:16:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Bill Edington is uh I I think it's fair to call him the preeminent expert on gambling in the United States. And I should add that as I prepared prepared for this program, when I talked to someone who is a a proponent of what we're talking about, they tended to call it gaming, and when I talked to somebody who was opposed to it, they tended to talk call it gambling. Uh Bill Edington, I noticed that you've got the word gaming and gambling in several of the books and articles that you've written. What do you think of what you're hearing this morning?
[00:16:42] Bill Eadington: I I have to point out I'm at a slight disadvantage. I didn't pick up either David or Linda's comments, so I have to guess what they said. But the the issue I think is inherently complex and difficult to resolve uh for a broad spectrum of society on one side or the other, and there are a number of reasons for this. Uh the economics associated with legalizing gambling or gaming tend to be very strong and positive. The social impacts tend to be very difficult to measure but clearly negative. And and so the ambiguity that people have or the confusion people have is because of this mixed effect, and and it certainly is a a very heavily debated point. I would like to go back to one of Steven's statistics, though, and point out one of the difficulties that people have. He cited the insurance number linking to embezzlement. And this is one of the mythical numbers that have snuck into the the public debate. And I would want to quote some at and an article by Joseph Kelly, a law professor at New York uh University who was trying to trace this number. It he basically found that uh after tracing the article to which it was cited, uh there was nothing in the article that cited the 40% American Insurance Institute number, uh nor did anyone else including uh the insurance associations even know that there was such a thing as the American Insurance Institute. People on both sides of this issue tend to make up numbers, tend to uh make their case however they can, and a lot of false information has crept into the debate which is regrettable.
[00:18:05] Randall Roth: Is that true generally in your opinion, with respect to the concern about uh uh corruption? For example, organized crime. Is that an overblown concern in your opinion, or is that something that our community should take very seriously as it discusses the possibility of legalized gambling?
[00:18:21] Bill Eadington: What has happened in in the United States and really throughout the world in the last 35 years is there's been a real shift in public acceptance of gambling, much of it associated with the uh removal of organized crime influence and political corruption in many jurisdictions. Uh highly regulated gaming industries such as in Nevada, New Jersey, Iowa, Illinois and Mississippi uh have had very little, if any, organized crime problem in the last 10 or 15 years. It's of course critically important that the government is willing and able to establish appropriate regulatory controls, but gaming operators also now are are dominant publicly traded companies. In fact, if you look at the Sheraton and ITT Corporation
[00:19:00] Speaker 2: and Hilton, both of which have a substantial presence in Hawaii, both are major casino operators in Nevada and in other jurisdictions throughout the world. So the industry has really changed. Uh, it had been discovered, uh, over the 20th century that illegal gambling is probably one of the most corruptive influences on law enforcement agencies around, which is why many jurisdictions such as New York, effectively decriminalized illegal gambling. uh to try to remove that factor and that is one of the factors that has led to a greater public acceptance.
[00:19:30] Speaker 3: Bill, is is there any special concern in your opinion, um, for people in Hawaii because we're closer to Japan and we've got a large number of of visitors from Japan, is is organized crime with respect to gambling different over there than it has been in the United States?
[00:19:46] Speaker 2: Well, I would say the one real concern is the integrity of uh politicians generally and of the political system. I think what we've learned in other jurisdictions is if you legalize casinos in a an honest competent uh political environment, it tends to work fairly well. But if you go onto one that is is known for its incompetence or its political corruptability, you end up with the same problems when you have legal gambling. been going through this recently so
[00:20:10] Speaker 3: We won't ask your opinion on whether Hawaii is known for for corruptibility or or not, uh, we'll we'll assume that uh our listeners are are better able to to uh render an opinion on that one. Uh, Bill, I'm going to gonna move on to the next phase of our our conversation, but I know you've got a lot more to say, and I want you to stay on the line. I'm going to be coming back to you in just a couple of minutes. Um, do we have Jo Suki on online three? I believe, um, Joe, can you hear me?
[00:20:36] Speaker 4: Yes, I can.
[00:20:37] Speaker 3: I'm I'm looking at a headline right now from the newspaper, oh, maybe two months ago, it says, "Suki resurrects gambling," and it certainly makes it sound as though you're a a big proponent of legalized gambling, and I know that John Prichard had a cartoon, uh, I think several weeks ago that if I recall correctly, you had, uh, dice hanging from your neck or something like that. Uh, what's your reaction number one to to that, the the public perception that you are very much a supporter of legalized gambling, and number two, what's your reaction to what you've been listening to thus far?
[00:21:11] Speaker 4: Well, I'm not much of a gambler myself. I haven't been to Vegas in years. I can't even re- remember when. But I am a supporter of uh increasing the revenue base for the state of Hawaii. Uh, being a legislator and being in the and being a leader in the legislature, I know what kind of an economic problem that we have right now. I am also aware that we are a tourist driven economy and we need to uh uh open the dimensions of tourism and this would be one way. Now, with the the House of Representatives is going throughout the state in a methodical way to find out how the people feel. Thus far, uh most communities uh has been opposed to gambling and uh we are uh except for the uh East Hawaii. Uh, we're going to have a major hearing in uh in Honolulu on December 14th in the old State Capitol, and
[00:22:21] Speaker 3: Joe, assuming that that that all of them except East Hawaii come out strongly opposed, how does that factor into the legislature's thinking?
[00:22:30] Speaker 4: I really don't know yet because uh uh for one thing, it's the minority uh you don't have that many people appearing. Uh like uh I like like in Maui, probably we had 100 some people appearing. Majority were strongly opposed to it, but they don't necessarily reflect the majority of the people in Maui. But there would be that would be heavily considered. Already we're looking at different uh alternatives. One might be to uh provide for the counties to to give the counties the option whether they would want to go into gaming or not. And that would be one of the considerations.
[00:23:18] Speaker 3: Um, Joe, to what extent, in your opinion, is the legislature concerned that if some form of gambling, let's assume casino gambling for now, if some form of gambling is introduced in Hawaii, even though there might be an attempt to to regulate it, limit uh where it could be and and all that sort of thing. Is there concern that somehow the sovereignty movement will result in a native Hawaiian group having the same sort of rights that Native American groups on the mainland have, which is, as I understand it, would enable them to set up casinos anywhere and everywhere, once the state had authorized it in in just one place?
[00:23:55] Speaker 4: Uh, that is a major consideration that and that's going to be uh debated uh very heavily. However, uh Randy, if we choose not to go into gaming and uh it is my understanding that there is some legislation that's going on right now in the Congress and the the prospects of passage might be pretty good. That uh will allow sovereignty groups to to provide for for for gaming in that in a respective community, even though there is no gaming uh at present. And so what can happen is people 6,000 miles away can make a decision whether we will have gaming in Hawaii or not. And uh and that would be uh uh disastrous for the state of Hawaii, because we would have nothing to add to our revenue base to to take care of our schools and health and etcetera which we which is much needed right now. Yeah. And so again, I this is some of the considerations that we are looking at. If there is a decision to be made, I think it should be made on a local base. And it's important that if we have gaming, that we proceed rapidly because uh uh uh gaming is a marketable thing. I think if you have a good casino early, it would be very difficult for someone else to come in with another casino when it's not going to be the cost benefit is not not going to be there.
[00:25:31] Speaker 3: Joe, I really appreciate you being available to us this morning. If you can stay on the line, and I know you've got a busy morning planned, if you can stay on the line, I'd like to come back to you later in the show, but if you need to go off to some other activity, please feel free to do so. Thanks again for for being available to us. Well, I want to remind listeners that this is Pop Radio. We're talking about legalized gambling. We're at that stage of the show where we are inviting you to call, ask any of our guests a question or make a brief comment. And especially because we have so many guests, I need to underline and emphasize that word brief. I might also mention that, uh, you might watch Channel Two News tonight. KHON has, uh, Manolo Morales and Bob the cameraman here, and our expectation is that there will be a report on this radio show or about this radio show on their six o'clock news, perhaps their ten o'clock news as well. So again, if you would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Uh, while we're waiting for a call, Steve Olm has a comment and then we're going to go to the calls and we're going to move quickly.
[00:26:38] Speaker 2: Randy, I I realize certain researchers may have uh different opinion with other researchers, but the legislature asked their own Legislative Reference Bureau to to investigate this. And their research found that two out of three pathological gamblers commit illegal acts to pay gambling related debts. What we have seen locally is people going from one community to another to enforce gambling debts. We've had people convicted on Maui who have gone over from here in order to force people to pay gambling related debts. Those people that you had, uh, referred in my article earlier, are people who had run up hundreds of thousands of debts through their work to pay for their illegal gambling activity. These aren't hypothetical numbers. These are people that are being really hurt. The police department and myself over the years have received calls from family members whose parents or kids have been losing their savings, have been spending all their money on video poker machines, seen as one of the most addictive types right now. We have, uh, hundreds of illegal poker machines and slot machines here in Hawaii right now. We don't need to increase the opportunity for people to lose money on those.
[00:27:44] Speaker 3: Okay. Well, we've got, uh, a lot of guests with a lot to say and I want to hear more from from all of them and I'm especially anxious to hear Professor Eatington's comments on what he's been listening to. But we're going to go to our callers, we're going to try and move very quickly. First, David, uh, good morning, David.
[00:27:59] David Carey: Good morning, Randy, and thank you for the show. Last week, the governor accepted a free trip to Las Vegas provided by a gambling junket operator. It was laundered to the UH athletic department. But since the governor is in a position of public trust regarding the decision about gambling, do you think that was right?
[00:28:13] Speaker 3: David, do you know that for a fact? Or are you speculating?
[00:28:16] David Carey: Well, that was in the that was in the paper. In other words, the paper indicated that the governor accepted a free ticket from Jackie's Travel. That's a gambling junket operator. And, uh, the question is, is that right?
[00:28:27] Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what, let, let's let's call that a a statement, and maybe when we talk to some of our guests a little bit later on, maybe they'll know a little bit more about, uh, the issue than than I do, and somebody,
[00:28:38] Speaker 2: Okay, let's let's let's call it that a reported statement by Mike Ewen in the star bulletin.
[00:28:43] Speaker 3: Okay, that sounds fair and and uh my guest, whenever I go to you for for anything in particular, if you'd like to respond to David's comment as well as whatever I go to you for why, feel free to do so. Thank you, David. Um, this question is for Mr. Um David Kerry, of our Rigger. Um Mr. Kerry, you you, um, used the word entertainment in your article. I rather you um use the words leisure, culture, hos- hospitality, um and customer service for, for, um, uh, the tourist industry in the state of Hawaii. Um also Mr. Kerry, what information do you have that would persuade or entice a Asian gambler, um, from, um, uh, persuade Asian gambler, um from gaming in regional centers in Asia, such as Kai-Lung, uh Macau, Singapore, and such other established long-established areas in Asia that have long have a long tradition of gaming in these, in these, in the Asia Pacific uh um region. Okay. James, let's let's go to David Kerry and get his reaction to your comment and see if he has uh an answer to your question. David Kerry, are you there?
[00:35:24] David Carey: I am. What do you think? First as to the use of entertainment, you know, there's a lot of people that think our industry is really based on entertainment, that what we provide is is just enjoyment and there are a lot of attributes to it and and as to the question of Asia, you know, one of the the benefits that we have in here in Hawaii is unlike a Las Vegas or Atlantic City or some other places, we have other things to attract people here. So the idea is that gaming as an amenity is just one of the things that can be done here. We also have the beautiful beaches, uh the outdoor activity, the clean air, the water, all of those things put together create the package that cause people to come here. So if you had a choice of going to gamble in a center city location or come to beautiful state of Hawaii, uh hopefully the choice you would make would be to come to Hawaii.
[00:36:11] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you much. Let's go to our next caller, Steve in Waikiki, and again, I remind our listeners that because we have so many guests and a controversial topic, I'm going to ask you to keep your question and your comment very, very brief. Steve in Waikiki, good morning.
[00:36:24] Steve Alm: Good morning. My question is is as follows. I I myself have done some consultancy work for uh for the FBI with regard to crime in ethnic communities. And one of the things we find is that it's extremely difficult once uh criminal organizations are ensconced within ethnic communities, which uh criminal organizations which come from abroad. They're very hard to root out and very hard to deal with because people in the ethnic communities are frequently very afraid to talk about what they're experiencing. Uh, we have a number of ethnic communities in Hawaii, and we have a number of gamblers in those communities. And while uh the the previous commenter said that that that organized crime didn't seem to be as much of a problem as it was a uh reported to be, I would like to hear some comment about the possibility that we're going to see closed circuit organized crime from Japan and other communities coming into Hawaii, and not very much amenable to control or to policing.
[00:37:21] Speaker 3: Okay, let me get a quick reaction. I'll get off and listen. Thank you, Steve. I'm going to get a quick reaction from Steve Olm and then we'll get a reaction from Bill Eatington on the Mainland. Steve,
[00:37:31] Steve Alm: Well, one of the things that I've I've found disturbing is the Asian organized crime influence in California in some of the card clubs they have there. And are we talking about the Yakuza or is it broader than that? No, it's it's more uh Chinese Asian groups, the Wah Ching, the Sun Toy, it's more uh people that are preying on folks that are developing gambling problems. The commerce club in Commerce, California, the bicycle club in Bel Gardens,
[00:38:00] Speaker 2: California have become tremendous sources of organized criminal activity. Now, the the population of immigrant groups that are being played upon in in in LA is tremendous and we don't have that size population here but I I'd hate to see how the opportunities for that would translate.
[00:38:18] Speaker 3: Okay. Bill Eatington on the mainland, what's your thinking on this?
[00:38:22] Bill Eadington: Well, let me address a number of points. First, the California issue on card clubs is a real issue. That all of these areas there's a question of magnitude. Now, there have been issues of control and certainly Asian organized crime groups surrounding the card clubs in California. This points to, I think, a need for statewide regulation and more substantial regulation than the California communities that are overseeing those card clubs presently do. With regard to the issue of competing against Asian locations, casino gaming is still illegal in almost every Asian location, the exceptions from Macau and Korea and the Philippines, but these are not the kinds of places that are terribly attractive and actually, a premium player Asians go to Australia or to Las Vegas. And so, the issue of would Hawaii be competitive here is is an open issue, and I think that they would be. There there are a wide variety of issues that that need to be debated here, and regrettably, this is one of those topics that people have very strong opinions on a very weak information base. And one of my concerns, going back to one of Steve Om's comments, is the data that are available, especially on the social cost issue, were so bad that they've worked their way into the public debates that it is more misleading than insightful. And what is really needed is is is very good and somewhat disinterested study of social impact.
[00:39:39] Speaker 3: Bill, you have an advantage on us partly because you're an expert this, you've made your life study gambling, but also you're at a distance. We're kind of on top of this. What should we as a community be asking ourselves that that you get the feeling we're not asking ourselves. In in in what way could this public conversation be improved as you look at it from a distance?
[00:40:00] Bill Eadington: Well, I think what you really have to ask is do you want Hawaiians to gamble? Because if casinos are introduced into Hawaii, my suspicion is that the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act is ultimately going to allow native Hawaiians to legalize casinos on their own lands, their own trust lands within the islands. And the experience in most of the United States and in many parts of the world is when you bring casinos in, you don't cater just to tourists, you cater primarily to locals. There are very few places like Las Vegas that are primarily tourist driven and most gaming venues that have opened in America in the last 10 years, have catered primarily to people who live within a 100-mile radius of where the casinos are located. So, the real important question is do you want Hawaiians to gamble, or do Hawaiians believe that they should have the right to gamble?
[00:40:46] Speaker 3: And by Hawaiians, by Hawaiians, you're talking about the people of Hawaii.
[00:40:49] Bill Eadington: That's right, the people who live in the state of Hawaii, because they are going to be the major customers for casinos unless you try to isolate them onto the the neighbor islands and strictly in the tourist-oriented resorts, and even that may be difficult to achieve.
[00:41:04] Speaker 3: Okay. So so that becomes, I think, the most important question. Bill, one of the frustrations of only having an hour is that we just have to keep this thing moving. I'm going to come back to you, but we've got more people on the the phone and more trying to get in and um, so I will be back to you in just a bit. Let's go to Peter in Kanyohei. Good morning, Peter.
[00:41:22] Speaker 5: Um, I just wanted to say, I'm totally opposed to gambling in Hawaii because that would that'd be a that would not benefit the airlines going or Hawaiian Hawaiian airlines, going to Las Vegas, back and forth as tourist, and like in that movie Showgirls, I don't think we'd want our Wahine's, our our, um, our girls in situations like that.
[00:41:43] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you, Peter. We appreciate your call. We'll move to Bob from Hawaii Kai. Good morning, Bob.
[00:41:49] Speaker 6: Good morning. Just a short statement. Mr. Carey, it would seem that you would be willing to make a terrible tradeoff. You'd be willing to sacrifice all that makes Hawaii unique, its wholesome environment, its superb quality of life, for the goal of bringing people to the islands who want to gamble. That's the kind of tradeoff that even hotel operators should think twice about.
[00:42:10] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you, Bob. I'm going to give David Carey, the president, CEO of Outrigger an opportunity to respond to that briefly. David, are you there? Jeff, do we have David?
[00:42:19] David Carey: Yeah, I'm here. Uh, you want to respond to Bob's comment? Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, people have different visions of what gaming can be. We would be absolutely against the proliferation of slot machines in video poker and keno machines all over the place. I think the only thing that we could be behind would be to have a single site or area, or maybe two at the most, much like Australia and New Zealand has done where that's the only place you can go uh and access would be primarily oriented for tourists and not for the local people, although certainly local people are going to gamble but it has to be exteriorly designed controlled and it has to be limited for it to make any sense.
[00:42:57] Speaker 3: David, does that mean that if introducing casino gambling in Hawaii, if the state were to authorize just one location, if that meant that a native Hawaiian group could compete set up other operations all over the island, would you under those circumstances oppose legalization of gambling?
[00:43:16] David Carey: I think it would be a mistake if the state and the federal laws were structured such that we could not control the locations of casino gaming. If they were everywhere, I believe that would be a mistake for Hawaii.
[00:43:27] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you. Uh, we've got Wayne in St. Louis Heights and I remind listeners that we're going to try and get to as many callers as possible and I want to give all of our guests an opportunity to um to say some more things. We're going to go to uh uh Linda Lingo again in just a moment but first, we've got Wayne in St. Louis Heights for a question or a brief comment.
[00:43:46] Speaker 7: Good morning.
[00:43:47] Speaker 3: Good morning, Wayne.
[00:43:47] Speaker 7: Um, I'm very concerned about gambling coming to Hawaii on the basis of what happened in Atlantic City. Uh, when that city voted to legalize gambling, the the taxes for real estate shot up, and as a result, many people lost their homes because they could not pay the real estate taxes and a lot of the land was seized and sold to casinos. I'm concerned that something like that could happen to Honolulu if gambling were to be legalized here. Okay. Does any of your guests have any comment on that?
[00:44:21] Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what. Let's let's call that a statement so we can keep moving, but in a moment I'm going to survey all of the guests and they're going to be able to respond to that or any other comment that they've been listening to. Thank you, Wayne. We're going to move to Peter in Hawaii Kai. As soon as we hear from Peter, then I'm going to go to our various guests and let them uh say whatever they have on their minds after having listened to all of this. Peter in Hawaii Kai, good morning.
[00:44:42] Speaker 5: Good morning. Uh I'm curious. Um, I I watched with uh watched long distance as we all did perhaps and heard about the situation in Florida as they went through um, the same kind of issue that we're kind of looking at right now and, and recognizing the fact that they do have some kind of gaming, they have high-lie and dog tracks. They decided in the midst of an overwhelming push by the gaming interests, to reject gaming and, as far as tourism's concerned, the only thing I can see for that is that they decided that, as far as they're concerned, gaming is not the panacea for tourism. It's not going to help tourism. And they decided there's going to be a detriment, in fact that, you know, Orlando in that area is primarily a family-oriented destination place and that's kind of what we think Hawaii is. If we go for gaming, the same thing's going to happen. That's a statement.
[00:45:29] Speaker 3: Peter, thank you very much. We appreciate that. I want to remind listeners that this is Pop radio. We have five guests either in the studio or with us by phone, David Carey, who's the president, CEO of Outrigger Hotels and Resorts, Joseph Toy, who is a CPA and director of Cooper's and Library and's Hospitality Consulting Services group, Bill Eatington, who's a professor of economics and director of the Institute for the Study of Gambling and Commercial Gaming at the University of Nevada Reno, Linda Crocket Lingo, the mayor of Maui County, and Steve O, the US attorney for the district of Hawaii. Uh, we do have a couple lines open. We know an awful lot of you've been trying to get in and unsuccessfully because our lines have been full from almost the beginning, but there are some open lines right now. So if you'd like to call, we're at 955-8821 and neighbor islanders are always invited to call us collect. Uh, let's go to Linda Lingo who's been listening for a long time and probably real frustrated, right Linda? Uh, I bet you've got about two hours of things to say about what you've been listening to. What uh what's most on your mind?
[00:46:33] Linda Lingle: It's been extremely interesting. I want to make four points. First of all, I want to use the September 11th Wall Street Journal article about gambling in Louisiana to address two points. One that Dave Carey's point about the economic impact, and in this article, uh the Dean of the business school at the University of New Orleans says, what's clear is gambling is not producing the big economic benefits that were promised. Secondly, the point about uh that Professor Eatington made about if you uh set up gambling and you regulate it, you don't have these problems. In Louisiana right now, which it it is legal, the FBI is down there uh investigating among others, the Senate President, the House speaker, and those two senators and representatives who head the gaming oversight committees. I think that's important. The other two points I want to make are especially important. Number one, this talk about gambling is delaying the state of Hawaii from facing the real issues, the economic underlying issues that we need to face, and that is we need to live within our means. Rather than continually looking for new revenue sources, we need to live within the means of a state our size, and we need to do that quickly. The longer we delay facing these real economic issues, the more difficult it's going to be for us down the line. Secondly, on a federal level right now, Randy, there's a push by Senator Lugar and others to create an objective commission to look at the impacts of gambling in America. And the gaming industry, as they call themselves, has set up a lobbying organization in Washington DC to fight the establishment of a commission, which would do nothing other than analyze the impacts so Americans could make clear judgments on this topic. And I think it's because they know that the impacts are negative.
[00:48:20] Speaker 3: I I think one of the themes in your article this morning in the newspaper, I think, is that once the genie's out of the bottle, it's awfully hard to get it back in and you do create a constituency, I think, that's going to fight for whatever it is that's uh that's out there, even if people think of it as being there on a test basis.
[00:48:35] Linda Lingle: Well, maybe Professor Eatington Eatington can address that point whether or not that's true that once you get some form of gambling, it always leads to another form of gambling.
[00:48:45] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you, Linda. And because your third point was a little bit of a political statement, a good one, a great one, but a little bit of a political statement, we're going to go to Joe Suki, who stayed on the line and we're going to give him equal time, and then we'll hear from our other.
[00:48:58] Linda Lingle: And maybe you can ask him to address the point he made about why we have to act so quickly, which is the exact opposite of what the Professor said, which is you need to take time and you need to analyze the impact.
[00:49:08] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank you, Linda. Uh Joe Suki, are you there?
[00:49:13] Joe Souki: Joe Suki? Oh, maybe the good mayor should have discussed about uh uh uh corruption with mayors and not necessarily with speakers and uh and and and Senate presidents.
[00:49:24] Speaker 3: I had a feeling we might have a That has a terrible implication and I think it goes it it goes around. Okay. I I can honestly say that the state legislature is very honest and it's it's driven by this, only for the consideration for the people of the state of Hawaii, what is good for the state of Hawaii. Okay. And just so we have not made it this this decision on gaming yet, we're merely on a fact finding hearing and uh let's and and if we go on with a bill in the house, it will be continued the the uh debate on this issue, and I'm sure before we make a final this this decision on on on gaming that we will have all of the relevant facts. And and Joe, earlier if I heard correctly, you were saying that that the reason to rush is that if you get out there first, that you capture the market and and a native Hawaiian group would have less of an incentive to to establish a casino. Is that what you were saying?
[00:50:28] Joe Souki: Yes, hopefully. That would be one of the considerations. It It's Is there Is there any other reason to rush? Rush is that uh I I don't want I just want to go back another uh uh go back a statement. The good mayor mentioned that we should live within our means. We have been making great adjustments in the state. Uh the state legislature, the last session cut 350 million. The governor is cutting 150 million, and going back into the session will cut about 80 or 90 million dollars.
[00:50:57] Speaker 3: Okay. Now that's equal time.
[00:50:59] Joe Souki: time we get to make a determination, how is this going to affect the quality of life in the state of Hawaii?
[00:51:04] Speaker 3: Right.
[00:51:05] Joe Souki: And and this is the thought processes that that that that's going on now. And is is the revenue from gaming going to add to the to the to the state uh uh state tourist driven dollars? Is it going to make life a little better or worse for the for the people of the state?
[00:51:24] Speaker 3: Okay. And we have not made a final choice yet, but we are going to this thought processes right now.
[00:51:30] Joe Souki: It's not just sitting down and saying that gaming is bad and the state and the people of the state of Hawaii is going to be corrupt because of of having gaming.
[00:51:40] Speaker 3: Okay. Thank thank you very much and if you can stay on the line a little bit longer, we'll we'll try to get back to you a bit later. I would love to have Linda Crocket Lingo and Joe Suki in the same room. In fact, maybe we'll try to do a radio show sometime down the road. I think that could be a very, very interesting conversation. Uh, let's see. First of all, Joseph Toy, you've been listening to this for quite a while. Any thoughts to share briefly on what you've been listening to?
[00:52:02] Joseph Toy: Yes, well, I think that uh, you know, both Mayor Lingo and David Carey have some very very good points that may not be so incompatible, uh, in that uh there really isn't a lot of information out there. I think that uh, with the legislation that was passed last year, it was done, it seemed, in an in an information vacuum and what studies that I did see were prepared by gaming companies and so there was a lot of bias on that. And I would go further that not only do we need to do economic uh benefit and cost analysis, but also a social impact study. Um, but also, you know, the competitive uh realities are is is that many of our destinations do have gaming and a lot of our visitors that come to Hawaii um, also uh, like the gaming activities uh when they travel to other destinations.
[00:52:45] Speaker 3: So I I hear you saying that maybe we'd all be better off if it wasn't anywhere, but since it is out there and since we're competing with them that maybe we ought to consider.
[00:52:53] Joseph Toy: I I think we need to keep an open mind of it, but I also think that we also have to realize that um, I don't think most of the professionals here that are in the tourism industry want to have proliferated gaming, in other words, as as David said, uh getting machines on on every corner. But if we can isolate it and limit it in in a fashion where it can minimize the impacts, and get our hands around it from a regulatory standpoint, it could benefit it and it will at least add to the tourism product that we have.
[00:53:19] Speaker 3: Okay. Brief comment from Steve O.
[00:53:21] Steve Alm: Yeah, well, I think as uh has been said, that the each state's residents are going to be the one funding the gambling. So whether the state's residents want it or not is an important part. The fact finding showed people coming to the legislature and speaking here in Honolulu, were against it. Maui against it, Kauai against it, part of the Big Island was against it. Particularly Kauai, who has more a more severe economic problem than anywhere else in the state significantly. The mayor, the prosecutor, the police all came out against it as well as 9 out of the 10 folks appearing there.
[00:53:51] Speaker 3: And and Joe Suki would say, well there weren't that many people, and so maybe when the hearings, I guess he said in December on Oahu, maybe the folks who feel strongly, pro or con, ought to show up.
[00:54:01] Steve Alm: Absolutely, while the same, there's been a lot of publicity on it, that same invitation was extended to all the neighbor islands, and they got what came out. Those are people who know relatives who have lost all this money, people that have committed crime in order to pay for it, and I think they've spoken very clearly on this.
[00:54:15] Speaker 3: Okay. Let's go to Bill Eatington on the mainland, then we're going to take three more calls and then return to our guests for uh closing statements. Bill Eatington.
[00:54:23] Bill Eadington: Well, one very interesting part of this is, can you control uh gaming if it is brought to Hawaii, and this relates relates to the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act.
[00:54:32] Speaker 3: Let let me turn that around and ask you, can we control it? What do you What do you think the chances are? What are the odds?
[00:54:38] Bill Eadington: From what I understand, it would be quite difficult because I suspect the courts would ultimately rule that Native Hawaiians have the same rights as Native Americans and the law reads fairly straightforward that if any organization is allowed to offer a form of gaming uh for any purpose, then uh Native American groups have the right to offer the same form of gambling on their trust land. And this has been the in the Pandora's box that's been opened in states such as Connecticut, uh Wisconsin, Minnesota, uh Michigan, which is has basically allowed Indians to run full-service casinos. And uh what it does is make the ability to create a very small presence of casino gaming in Hawaii quite difficult. Which is why I think you have to go back and ask the broader question, is this an activity that is socially and economically uh um appropriate for people who live in the state of Hawaii? And they will ultimately be the ones who are the customers.
[00:55:29] Speaker 3: That strikes me as an awfully good question. What's the second most important thing that we ought to be asking ourselves that, based on the conversation you've listened to thus far, you're dubious about in terms of whether we've really focused on it or not?
[00:55:42] Bill Eadington: Well, you know, the other dimension too is you have to realize that public acceptance of gambling has shifted phenomenally toward the positive in the last two generations. Uh, Yankelovich survey that came out last year commissioned by one of the casino companies, indicated that 90% of Americans said that gambling is an acceptable form of entertainment for themselves or, if not for themselves, it is for other people.
[00:56:02] Speaker 3: So it's gone from a vice to entertainment.
[00:56:05] Bill Eadington: It It has certainly moved in that direction, and this is notwithstanding the realities that exist on the negative side. One of the problems with the uh with the uh Luger commission or the the National Commission that has been suggested in Congress, uh, the mayor from Maui indicated that this would be an objective commission, but the difficulty is that every politician who has supported it has also come out and said that they are anti-gambling and they view this as a cancer on society. The real difficulty, again, is getting objective clear information so that citizens can make good decisions rather than working in a world of uh prejudice or shallow.
[00:56:39] Speaker 3: So so to call it a cancer is is maybe even more of an indication of where they stand than to call it gambling, huh?
[00:56:44] Bill Eadington: Well exactly. I would refer you to last Thursday's Wall Street Journal article on the split in the Republican Party on this issue between the Christians and the and business-oriented Republicans.
[00:56:53] Speaker 3: Okay. Stay on the line, Bill. We're going to go to three more callers, and I apologize to the many, many folks who've who've tried to get in, and those
[00:57:00] Randall Roth: folks that we have gotten in, but we're not going to have time to get to. I'm going to take three real quick calls and then if possible, I want to go back to our guest for one last quick statement. First Duke in Waikiki. Good morning, Duke.
[00:57:10] Speaker 8: Good morning. I just have this nightmare that the convention center may not make it and be turned into a big casino, but assuming it does make it. I'd like Mr. Carry to answer. Is he looking towards Hobeon area to be where the casinos will be placed?
[00:57:28] Randall Roth: Okay, let's ask him. David Kerry on line two. Are you there? David, are you there?
[00:57:33] David Carey: Yeah, I am now. Yeah. You know, the not really. You know, the the convention center, you know, if you go back to why we want to consider this, convention center is a means of attraction. Gaming is a means of attraction. It should be placed in a place that are closer where the mainstream of traffic is. Hobeon is is much less a mainstream of traffic and at least as we as our community is structured today, that doesn't seem like the best place to put it.
[00:57:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to Thank you, and I'll come back to you in just a bit, David. Let's go to Steve in Makiki, I think it is. Good morning, Steve.
[00:58:04] Steve Alm: Good morning. Good program. Thank you. Um, you know, I I have a thought, sort of like this. One of your call or one of your consultants or said this social impact was negative, the financial was positive. If I believe the government is supposed to negotiate on behalf of the public, I could only then figure that the government was selling out our interest. I mean, it's real clear. So I look at it this way and I actually Duke took the question I was going to ask, but, luck is no substitute for leadership. To Mr. Carrie, I think I think you probably are a kindred spirit with Linda Lingo, if you haven't read her article in the paper this morning. It sounds to me like you're you're reading from the same book. But we have an 80% occupancy rate already. Okay. Steve, I I have to move on. You've made you've made a very good comment and I appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:58:56] Randall Roth: We go to our last caller. Bob in Hawaii Kai. Good morning.
[00:58:59] Speaker 6: Good morning. Um real fast, you find corruption in the United way, you find it everywhere. When you're looking for control, when you're looking for control, Yeah, at the University of Hawaii too, I guess you find it, right? Okay. Absolutely. When you're looking for control, probably the best control factor and probably the most unique factor in Hawaii is we are islands. Our offshore waters are perfect for off shore gaming. We don't put the casinos in the face of the little kids. We get the greatest amount of controls, we can control the traffic to the boats, we can tax it. Yeah, it's complete control. Let's call that a comment.
[00:59:30] Randall Roth: I really appreciate it, and we've got just a couple of minutes left and hopefully each of our guests in the studio and by phone will have at least a few sentence to make a a closing comment. Uh let's start with Joseph Toy. Real quickly Joseph closing comment based on everything you've heard this far.
[00:59:47] Joseph Toy: Well, I think that uh we shouldn't really look at uh gaming as a panacea for our our fiscal woes here and I don't think we should really rush into gaming, given the far reaching impacts that it does have. At the same time, given the market conditions, I think we need to keep an open mind to it and look at what data, what objective data that we can get and then make a a a an intelligent decision based on that.
[01:00:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Steve Alm.
[01:00:09] Steve Alm: Yeah. Uh whether people want it or not is critical. The star bulletin poll was scientific, it was done by media research group in Washington. It was against. People that think we can control it with offshore gambling, I think are mistaken. Nothing's going to stop our local residents from going on to those ships, losing their shirts, coming back and getting the money however they can, whether it's savings accounts for the family or whether it's money from work. I think we're all going to be losers if that happens.
[01:00:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Linda Crocket Lingo.
[01:00:39] Linda Lingle: Good morning. Candy, I think legalizing gambling in Hawaii sends a horrible message to the young people of Hawaii. It says that when we were in trouble, when we faced tough times, instead of putting our nose to the grindstone and working hard to get out of it, we decided to risk our future on the unknown, take a chance and gamble. And I don't think it's worth the huge risk without the proof of return, and I'm not willing to risk Hawaii's future.
[01:01:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you. Um, Josuki, are you still there? Do we have Joe on the line still? Joe, can you hear me? Thank you very much. I think this was a very interesting uh uh hour. I just want to say that uh we as a public and these these decision makers should not be be moralizing as to what is good or bad for the community. I believe the people themselves can make that choice. Thank you very much. Thank you, Joe. Uh let's go to David Kerry. David, can you hear me?
[01:01:34] David Carey: I can. You know, the core challenge for this is one to understand community sediment, but I think the key issue for us is effective regulation. Cuz I believe that if it's effectively regulated, as it is in Nevada and Missouri and a couple of other states, but not in Louisiana, it has a chance of being managed well. Without that, uh forget it. We we have no chance.
[01:01:52] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, David. And Bill Eatington, we've got about 30 seconds for you to sum up your thoughts.
[01:01:58] Bill Eadington: Okay, I think that the reality that you would confront if you had casino gaming in Hawaii would be far less dramatic than either proponents or opponents are stating about it. It clearly is no panacea for state budgetary difficulties, and I don't believe there's any real need to rush to make a decision because I think the next five years are going to teach us a lot about the realities of what casinos mean in jurisdictions see from the US experience. Uh, however, because of the native Hawaiian issue, I think controlling the size of the industry is certainly going to be difficult.
[01:02:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, thank you, Bill. I want to thank all my guests, David Kerry, the President CEO of Outrigger, Joseph Toy from Cooper's and Lybrand, Bill Eatington from the University of Nevada Reno, Linda Crocket Lingo, the mayor of uh Maui County, Josuki, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and Steve Alm, US Attorney. Uh, I especially want to thank Jenny Tanji, who's been our substitute professor for the last, or the substitute producer for the last two weeks. Jeff Ilarty always does a great job as our uh director of operations. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. We like to call it Pop Radio. Aloha.
[01:02:07] Bill Eadington: There is no panacea for state budgetary difficulties, and I don't believe there's any real need to rush to make a decision, because I think the next five years are going to teach us a lot about the realities of what casinos mean in jurisdictions from the US experience. However, because of the native Hawaiian issue, I think controlling the size of the industry is certainly going to be difficult.
[01:02:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, thank you, Bill. I want to thank all my guests, David Carey, the President CEO of Outrigger, Joseph Toy from Coopers and Lybrand, Bill Eatington from the University of Nevada Reno, Linda Crocket Lingo, the Mayor of Maui County, Joe Suki, the speaker of the House of Representatives, and Steve Alm, US attorney. Uh, I especially want to thank Jenny Tanji, who's been our substitute professor for the last or the substitute producer for the last two weeks. Jeff Ailardi always does a great job as our director of operations. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. We like to call it pop radio. Aloha.