Campaign Finance Concerns
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-03-17
Guests: Bob Watada (Executive Director, Campaign Spending Commission); Don Clegg (political insider); Arleen Kim Ellis (president, League of Women Voters); Red Morris (lobbyist); Neal Milner (Professor, University of Hawaii); Kioni Dudley (head, Hawaii Green Party); Desmond Byrne (head, Common Cause Hawaii); Mary George (State Senator (by phone))
Duration: 1:04:52

[00:00:02] Randall Roth: Good morning. Or, on St. Patrick's Day, top of the morning to you. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Today is March 17th, St. Patrick's Day. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM. And then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. All of us who work on pop radio are volunteers who believe in the importance of lively and informed dialogue. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that supports grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion.
[00:00:41] Randall Roth: Our topic today is campaign finance. And with me in the studio to discuss it are Bob Watada and Don Clegg.
[00:00:49] Randall Roth: Bob has his BA from the University of Colorado, Boulder, and a PhD in Agricultural and Resource Economics at the University of Hawaii, Manoa. He's been in the Peace Corps in Peru where he held many jobs, from fry cook to farmer. He's been an administrator and job training program with the Department of Labor and Industrial Relations. Currently, he's the Executive Director of the Hawaii Campaign Spending Commission. He's been very active in community activities, including the Waialai School local school board, Assistant Scoutmaster for Troop 10, Aloha Council. And it's not on his resume here, but I happen to know he was the league director at the Waikahal Pony Baseball League when I was a coach out there. Good morning, Bob.
[00:01:30] Bob Watada: Good morning to you, Randy.
[00:01:32] Randall Roth: We also in the studio have Don Clegg. Don is the president of Analytical Planning Consultants, Inc., which is involved in land use planning and processing. From 1985 to '89, he was the chief planning officer, and then from 1990 to '94, the director of the Department of Land Utilization for the city and County of Honolulu. He has his BA and MA degrees from USC, where he studied engineering and also experimental and theoretical psychology. Good morning, Don.
[00:01:59] Don Clegg: Morning, Randy.
[00:02:00] Randall Roth: Well, we're talking about campaign finance and Bob is the executive director of the Campaign Spending Commission. Why don't you get us started by telling us up until today? Have the rules been working very well?
[00:02:13] Bob Watada: Well, let me say this that in 1995, the legislature passed a number of amendments, Randy, that I think tightened up the law in a number of areas. But even without the amendments, there were, the law is is a fairly solid law. I think the the thing that has to be done of course is to enforce the law in a way that that is fair to everybody and make certain that the reports are our our our camping contribution expenditures are expenditures are fairly reported. That's basically what we're trying to do is to make certain, first of all, that everybody reports all contributions and all expenditures. Secondly, the law does require certain things as to how money is used, in other words, you can't go out and spend it for personal purposes. The law is clear on that point, and I think what's necessary for us to do at this point is to begin enforcing those provisions of the law that are already there and that's what we're going to do.
[00:03:08] Randall Roth: So the big change was that the 1995 legislature gave you at the Spending Commission some funds that now enable you to more actively police this area.
[00:03:17] Bob Watada: That's correct.
[00:03:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Don, I know from your article in this morning's advertiser that you think there are a few things broken with the current system. Real quickly, what's your bottom line on what's not working?
[00:03:30] Don Clegg: Well, I'll probably be denouncing some some favorite sacred cows today but I am particularly concerned about the Honolulu's campaign laws which I believe are both unconstitutional and are preempted by Bob's law in the states. And so, when I asked the question, well, why are they there? And I believe on the surface, they sound good and that some council members I I've heard who voted for the law expected the mayor to veto it and unfortunately he didn't and now we have the law in the books. But the question is asked, what does the law say? Well, it says that a lobbyist cannot give money and I think particularly insidious is that can't give campaign assistance to a candidate. And then you say, well, who is a lobbyist, because it's defined here and that's a very broad thing that says anybody who seeking or having sought, you didn't even have to get it, having sought approval within the preceding two years for any having sought any discretionary approval and then you say, what is discretionary approval and that's unfortunately, the law does not define that. So, we ask the question, is that a council action, probably yes, a conditional use permit by the city, probably a variance. Oh, but what if you take an appeal to the Zoning Board of Appeals and you win? Well, you suddenly you're a lobbyist. If you get a parade permit or you're a low income home improvement loan and I went down and checked the list of who's signed up as lobbyist, and 98% of the people who are signed up as lobbyist are those who low income people who have received a loan from the city for their homes.
[00:04:58] Randall Roth: And and you don't think that's what was intended at all when this was enacted.
[00:05:01] Don Clegg: That was was not intended but that's the way it's sitting there.
[00:05:05] Randall Roth: And so if if someone like that who falls within that definition of of lobbyists who's gotten a discretionary permit of of some sort, if they make the mistake of of hosting a a coffee hour for a candidate or making some phone calls for a candidate or or waving, or contributing 25 bucks, what have they just done?
[00:05:22] Don Clegg: Well, they're they're classified as a criminal now. And it puts a chilling effect upon the whole democratic process and I think this law has to go.
[00:05:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I know you've got a lot more to say about campaign finance, and Bob Watada has a lot more to say about campaign finance, but this is a a topic that it seems as though people tend to approach from a lot of different directions. And so before we invite calls generally, we've got some folks lined up on the phones and we want to get their thoughts quickly. Let's go first to Neil Milner. Neil is a professor of of political science at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, the co-author of a book entitled The Possibilities of Popular Justice. Neil, are you there?
[00:06:01] Neal Milner: Yes, I am, Randy.
[00:06:02] Randall Roth: Uh any thoughts you'd like to share about campaign finance in Hawaii?
[00:06:07] Neal Milner: Well, I think that um I'd like to share uh thoughts about both of them. I think that um Bob Watada's concern with policing has always been the serious issue on campaign financing. It's easy to make a law, but most of the laws that people like are are difficult to police. And so I think we should talk more about uh what's likely to happen when they try to police the law. I think the city council law is an easy target and I would like to talk more during the course of this discussion about the relationship between the city and the state law.
[00:06:38] Randall Roth: Okay, and that's the one that uh Don Clegg was just describing. Are you as critical of it as Don is?
[00:06:44] Neal Milner: Well, I would like to hear more people talk about how it in fact is working. Uh the way Don explains it um which is a really a worst case scenario, I would be very critical of it. But I would uh I think that I would like to hear more from people who have had some experience with that law.
[00:07:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Neil, a lot of times people talk about 100% public financing of elections. Uh just real quickly, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:07:09] Neal Milner: Well, it's not going to happen, that's what my thoughts are on it. Um and so I really don't spend much time talking about it. This is a a time during which uh first of all, there isn't that much money around and secondly, if I had to set my priorities for how to spend money, that would not be the place that I would send it. So I think that it's not really worth a great deal of time.
[00:07:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Any other thoughts before we move on?
[00:07:30] Neal Milner: No, I'd just as soon move on and hear some other people for a while.
[00:07:33] Randall Roth: Thanks a lot, Neil. We really appreciate your input. Uh now we go to Kioni Dudley. If you've had a chance to look at your Honolulu advertiser on page B3, that's the op-ed page. We've got a headline that says, campaign spending our strict limits needed to keep elections free and fair. On one side of the page it says, no, and that's Don Clegg, and Don, I noticed they used your stern photo. I told them to use the happy photo. But on the other side of the page with a very happy photo, we have Kioni Dudley, who says, yes, we need to enforce limits. Kioni, are you there?
[00:08:04] Kioni Dudley: Yes, I am.
[00:08:06] Randall Roth: Uh what do you have to say about campaign finance?
[00:08:09] Kioni Dudley: Well, first of all, I strongly disagree that that democratically financed the elections are uh not going to come about and that there are a problem. I I think that that's exactly what we need. It seems to me that right now, we're spending it's it's really the public, we are financing elections anyway through contracts that are uh given to people who are doing business with the state, they're doing business with the city and those people then bid their contract or uh raise the price of the of the product so that they can cover that and uh we wind up paying them and we, is the people, who wind up paying uh paying for the paying for the campaign contributions of people to incumbents. It's a way of keeping the incumbents in, it's a way of keeping the Democratic Party in. I just think that we need to get away from it entirely and the best way to do that is go to democratically finance the elections.
[00:08:59] Randall Roth: Okay, and Neil Milner, our professor and of political science from the University, seemed to think that that while it it may or may not make sense in theory, as a practical matter, it's just not going to happen. Uh what would in your mind cause it to happen, Kioni?
[00:09:14] Kioni Dudley: Well, I think when the if people would begin to realize that we, the people are really paying for kickbacks and that we the people are really paying for these outrageous things that are happening. and and we're paying for it anyway. You know, $10 or $15 million for elections statewide is just peanuts. It really is. So I I think it's a matter of just getting the word out to people, letting them realize, you know, I think people are really sick of what's going on in government right now. I think people are really sick of the fact that the Democrats have been in there for so long and have become so corrupt and I think they want something different and I think they realize that there is no way for any kind of candidate to get ahead without becoming corrupted before he's even elected.
[00:09:55] Randall Roth: Okay, and bottom line, as you're saying, it has to be 100% public financed with real strict rules preventing other sources of funds to enter the picture.
[00:10:06] Kioni Dudley: That's right, and I'm saying I'm saying we'd save a lot of money by doing it.
[00:10:09] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you Kioni. Uh, I meant to mention that Kioni is the author of two books, Man, God, and Nature, and also, A Call for Hawaiian Sovereignty. He has his doctorate from uh Manoa and this last uh campaign, he was the Green Party candidate for the office of governor. Let's move on to Red Morris. Uh Red, are you there?
[00:10:26] Red Morris: Yeah.
[00:10:28] Randall Roth: Uh Red, you and I have have not met. I know that uh that among other things, you do some professional professional lobbying and according to Honolulu Weekly, uh you have 17 customers. Jeez, I don't even know I have that money. Well, um, Red, I know you've got a a perspective on this issue from from the vantage point of the lobbyist. What do you think about campaign finance in Hawaii?
[00:10:53] Red Morris: Well, bottom line uh is that the uh Campaign Spending Commission, Bob's uh group, has uh has the tools. Uh everybody that's been quote doing it, uh a a a camp a funding uh campaigns or making contributions has been under the impression that they have to disclose what they contribute as well as the recipient. So, uh, And you feel that that that that has been that that works, that people Well, I I think that there have been some players that have not followed the uh the the the the the re uh the response of uh of disclosure. And that there is a move to uh to prohibit the corporations uh from contributing and I think that's uh a bad move. That goes back to 1960 when uh all directors were in uh in board rooms and uh getting bonuses and uh then told to uh contribute to these particular candidates. Uh it doesn't make sense. Disclosure is uh is the way it should go.
[00:11:50] Randall Roth: Okay. So you would say disclosure, which the law currently requires, and you enforcement of it. And and you're delighted I guess to hear Bob say that that now the Spending Commission is geared up to really enforce it well.
[00:12:02] Red Morris: Go for it.
[00:12:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Any other thoughts, Red?
[00:12:05] Red Morris: Not right now.
[00:12:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you much.
[00:12:08] Randall Roth: Appreciate uh your input this morning. Uh we also are going to be hearing from Arlene Kim Ellis from the League of Women Voters a little bit later in the show. Uh but first, I want to tell you that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, now's the time to do it. And our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late, tonight at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM, we'll have the show repeated in its entirety. Our topic is campaign finance and with me in the studio is Bob Watada, who's the executive director of the Campaign Spending Commission, and Don Clegg, who is a consultant involved in land use planning and processing, and has been involved in a number of campaigns in past years. Again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Bob Watada, you've heard uh from Kioni Dudley and Neil Milner and Red Morris, any thoughts based on what you've been hearing?
[00:13:09] Bob Watada: Let me make one comment about what Kioni uh Dudley said uh in terms of everybody is corrupt. Uh I just don't believe that that's true, because uh I've worked very closely with the many of the elected officials over the last a number of years, but particularly in this past year. And um I would say that clearly somewhere between 75 and 90% of the candidates really are trying to do the right thing. They're not corrupt, they're they're really they really feel that they want to follow the law and um you know, they're asking me, you know, they want to stay well within the bounds of the law. They're very honest people. And so I I I I don't think it's correct to paint them as corrupt and I think that's an unfair statement to make. All right, I would agree with that wholeheartedly. I think there's a there's a mistaken perception out there that everybody who gets in the government whether an appointee or elected official, immediately's got his finger in the hand in the till and that's just not so and I I I resent people who try to propagate that as an image of of government and and as a as a thing that we necessary evil that goes on there all the time. It just doesn't go on and I can tell you the in the in the 17 years that I was in in government and I was in a position to know. I I can say this, I was never offered a bribe. I don't know what's that because I wasn't important enough or what, but I was never offered a bribe by by anybody and I was in a position in land use law to to be recipient of that to be to be in harm's way. So I I resent the implication that the that people in government are all are all crooked.
[00:14:37] Randall Roth: Now, I was talking to somebody a a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about uh a piece of legislation that's being considered this session. And this fellow made the comment that that this they shouldn't do that because he already paid for the law that's that's on the books. And I said, what do you mean you paid for the law that was on the books? And here's what he said, he was pushing through a a bill and it didn't seem to be going anywhere, he went down to the office of the chair of that particular committee and he was saying, what's going on, this bill makes a lot of sense, I thought uh the chair was in support of this, it hasn't come up, I don't see it on the agenda, what's going on? And he said, all the secretary said was that the so and so has uh a fundraiser next week. That was the only thing she said and according to this fellow, he said he went back to the office, he thought about it, he thought about it, ended up making a large contribution, the legislation went through. In his mind at least, he bought that legislation. Don Clegg, is he just the exception or is that not uh inappropriate?
[00:15:43] Don Clegg: Well, you know, uh things can be can be misread uh and I can say that for every time that this might have happened, uh there's a many more times when somebody thought they'd bought something and they they didn't get it and you know, I've had the expression uh half a thing happen uh to me and that is uh a person was in and they were frustrated because they weren't getting what they wanted and uh they asked the question, well, what would it take? And the implication from that could be well, it's going to take money but not necessarily, what would it take also implies, what do I need to do? What have I done wrong in terms of my application, my thoughts, my my my uh directions. So, it it could be read a couple of different ways. You could read what would it take in many ways.
[00:16:34] Randall Roth: Okay, Bob Watada.
[00:16:36] Bob Watada: I would comment on that also in in to say that um the perception is possibly there that you can buy one particular legislator, but uh the fact is that you have 75 legislators and over the many years that I've worked with the legislature, I've seen really good legislation not go through. I've seen poor legislation go through also and you know, you can't say it's because a certain legislator was bought and so forth. I think that's too simple. And and you don't consider it inappropriate that so many people in the legislature have fundraisers right around the time that big decisions are being made in the legislature? Because to me the signal there is that if you've got something that you're very concerned about that's going on in the legislature, you better not forget to attend and contribute to this particular fundraiser.
[00:17:28] Bob Watada: From my own vantage point, I haven't seen that as happening, in other words, the legislators have the fundraiser at this point in time, tried to try to get money for particular legislation. I I just don't see it happening.
[00:17:43] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some callers on the line. Let's try to move quickly through our callers so that we can hear as many voices as possible. We'll start with David on the Big Island. Good morning, David.
[00:17:51] Caller: Yeah, good morning, Randy. Um I I don't think that full disclosure or anything else is adequate. I I think that there has to be a public or government funded forum for all the candidates to to state their opinion and and their their platform. And I think money has to be totally separated from from elections. Another thing that that will keep them more honest but it will allow a person to run for something who doesn't want to or isn't inclined to spend half his time raising money for his election.
[00:18:23] Randall Roth: So, it's a form of of public financing only instead of giving cash that the candidate would spend, it's providing a forum.
[00:18:29] Caller: A forum, yeah, and they all get up and and tell exactly what their position is.
[00:18:33] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's get a quick reaction to that uh from Don Clegg and then Bob Watada.
[00:18:38] Don Clegg: Well, that's nice in a perfect society. It's very idealistic. I'm sorry David, I don't uh think those things really work in the practical sense. You can't do it with just one forum. You got to have many forums. Have many then. Look, say again. Have many forums then, whatever it takes. Well, uh that's a that's again uh a nice practical thing and impractical as you say, and also. you got to get the cooperation of the media who are going to disseminate this information and the media's in the in the business of of selling time.
[00:19:08] Randall Roth: So they're in competition for for this.
[00:19:10] Don Clegg: Hey you know if if the media would give candidates uh uh time on the air at 1/10th what they charge the commercial people then we wouldn't have a problem we wouldn't need this at all. That's right.
[00:19:19] Randall Roth: From your article that's one of the messages I got that that that it's so expensive to get the message out that that's at the core of of of this issue.
[00:19:27] Don Clegg: Absolutely you got to recognize that campaigns cost money uh and that's the way our our economy that's the way our our society is set up and we're looking at a mayor's race of somewhere between a million to a million and a half dollars and a governor's race over two million dollars.
[00:19:40] Randall Roth: Okay Bob Watada.
[00:19:41] Bob Watada: I just want to comment to David that um I have worked in a number of campaigns over the years and every camp or election year the candidates go out to public forums to community through community organizations and how many times have I seen 20 candidates in front of 15 people in in a community and you know we worked worked hard to try to get the word out that all the candidates are going to be in this particular community on a given night so please come out and listen to what the candidates have to say you're an opportunity to meet the candidates, talk to them, and you see more candidates than you do uh people who listen.
[00:20:23] Randall Roth: I happen to know that you're not exaggerating. Um, you know when I was in Bob involved in pop 94, I I went out and attended quite a few of these and it's shocking how often there are more candidates than there are people there listening. Okay well thank you for your call David. Let's go to Mary George in Kailua. Good morning Mary.
[00:20:42] Mary George: Mary are you there? How we doing? Oh, we're doing all right. Mary is a uh former legislator and I know you were very active with the League of Women Voters at one time Mary. What do you have to say on this topic of campaign finance? Well I what uh motivated me to call Randy is I hope I can get Bob Watada to um uh restate a position. I've understood him to say that between 75 and 90% of political candidates are honest. Well hell Bob, if if you said that, you are telling me that 10 to 25% of them are dishonest. I think that's a dreadful thing to say.
[00:21:18] Randall Roth: Let me get Bob's reaction to that Mary and then we'll come back to you Bob. Okay.
[00:21:22] Bob Watada: Mary, I don't think I said that the 10-25% are dishonest but I say that uh uh 75 not that Bob 75 to 90% you know really try to follow the law. But there are those people Mary that try to push the law to its limits to see what they can do to to get you know a little bit beyond the law and those are the people that that you know concern me of course.
[00:21:45] Randall Roth: These are the people who are trying to take advantage of the ambiguities and so they're not necessarily doing something wrong but one could argue that they're doing something wrong.
[00:21:52] Bob Watada: That's correct that's not to say they're dishonest but they they do try to look at the law and they they do try to go as far as they can.
[00:21:59] Randall Roth: And and I guess the law is really quite complex. There's there are a lot of intricacies. At least I got that from your article this morning Bob.
[00:22:05] Bob Watada: That's correct. There are there are a number of places which is ambiguous.
[00:22:08] Mary George: Many people Bob find the law intimidating. Um I I would um as somebody who has confronted the law a great many times, fortunately never ran a foul of it, but I'm certainly aware of the of the problems and the pitfalls. I I would tend to agree with uh Red that um uh disclosure is uh that's supposed to be the sanction against the pushing the law too far.
[00:22:33] Randall Roth: With with disclosure according to Don Clegg, the public has the ultimate weapon. We throw the rascals out.
[00:22:39] Mary George: Absolutely. The weapon should not I don't think the sanction should be by commission by uh by uh by committee, by uh any either self-righteous or or um um elected body of people that uh says you know this is this is bad this is terrible uh this guy has to um be fined. I have another point that I'd like to make and and this too is this is really a question for Bob Watada.
[00:23:06] Mary George: I don't know how he or how the commission feels about um uh the allegation that's made that Frank Fasi can't uh spend money to have a secretary running his office. Now my my defending uh Frank Fasi, if anybody knows me, is a highly unlikely scenario. But uh but I think it's um uh it's the sort of of allegations that makes it look funny. It's perfectly legitimate. He's going to be a candidate, he's running an office, he can have 10 people in there if he's got the money for it.
[00:23:38] Randall Roth: Mary, let me let me get Bob's reaction to that and just so our folks, our our listeners are are reminded. A couple months ago in Honolulu Magazine, Bob Di wrote an interesting article about how a number of candidates and and non-candidates are spending money that they raised in various campaigns. And one of the the things that Bob wrote about is what Mary's just raised, and that is that Frank Fasi has had his his daughter on the payroll during a period of time that he wasn't officially a candidate. Any thoughts from you?
[00:24:05] Bob Watada: Well, let let me see uh on that particular subject, that's a subject of a complaint that's before the commission so I don't want to comment too much on that at this point because it's not clear whether or not uh they can do that. What the law says Oh, I think that's a terrible interpretation to make. I want to hear Don Clegg. I pretty much know how you are. Well, the law says that you're supposed to use your money to influence the outcome of your election. And you're not
[00:24:30] Mary George: that's not?
[00:24:31] Bob Watada: I haven't said that that's not, Bob's got both hands tied behind his back on this one because it it would be inappropriate for him to talk anymore about it since he's Okay let me hear from Dime Clegg on that one. Okay, cuz uh just so our listeners understand, Bob is in a decision-making capacity on this or the commission is and it just wouldn't be appropriate for him to talk more. But Don Clegg, it's okay for you to talk.
[00:24:51] Don Clegg: Well, like you Mary, I'm I'm no longer a great fan of uh of fearless Frank but uh uh it would appear that he does have a right from my standpoint to to run a uh an office. If he wants to hire his daughter, uh that may not be the best uh secretary in the world but uh nevertheless that's his prerogative to have uh average talent around.
[00:25:12] Randall Roth: Mary, with that we're going to move on. Mary thank you for your call. Uh let's let's go to Jerry Jossum who's in his car in Nu'uanu. At least he was when we put him on hold about 10 minutes ago. Jerry, are you there?
[00:25:24] Caller: Well, I always have to wait for Mary George to finish.
[00:25:27] Randall Roth: Okay and and so people know uh Jerry Jossum was the the head of the Republican Party for a number of years here in Hawaii. What do you have for us?
[00:25:34] Caller: Well, just a couple of things. Uh I think I had a question for Bob Watada. Uh, my recollection is that there was some sort of a fund uh set up and I don't know if there were appropriations made to it for support of candidates in legislative races. And my question for Bob is, is there such a fund or is there money set aside which has never been allocated for expenditure?
[00:26:00] Bob Watada: Uh Jerry, to answer your question, yes, there is uh a trust fund, the public uh Hawaii uh election campaign fund. Uh for those of you who are taxpayers and most of you are taxpayers, you get to check off $2 to give to this fund to help candidates who want to have partial public funding. Uh, there's uh funds in there but they have they have not been used that I think to the extent that they could be used. And so what uh I did as I went back to the legislature last year and a number of changes were made to considerably for example, increase the amount that's available. Prior to last year, $50 in election was available for a house member.
[00:26:39] Caller: So how much Bob was in the fund?
[00:26:41] Bob Watada: Currently, there's about $4 million in the fund Jerry.
[00:26:44] Caller: So with 75 uh well, let's take just the house every two years okay you have what 51. There's actually 76 legislators. 51 you at $50 a pop, that $4 million would last uh probably well into the year 3000. So my question is, how come the the current legislators won't loosen up a little bit? I mean you realistically uh uh a challenger needs you know $5 or $10,000 just to get started in a house race.
[00:27:15] Randall Roth: So how much can they get now? If somebody's listening in and they want to run for office, what can they get now? What will the legislature give out of that 4 million bucks?
[00:27:23] Bob Watada: Well, the law for house members and it depends upon individual district districts uh but it's it's approximately $1500 per election. So for the primary, it'd be $1500 and $1500 for the general election. If the candidate get through for members, it gets up to about $3,000 per election.
[00:27:41] Caller: That's a terrific improvement. I want to congratulate you for doing that. How would one go about applying for that?
[00:27:47] Bob Watada: All you have to do is come into our office and you one of the there are some conditions. You have to say that you're going to limit your expenditures to a certain amount. Uh I think in a house race it's approximately uh as I recall something about 12 or $13,000 per election.
[00:28:03] Randall Roth: Bob, can you maybe give our listeners your phone number so if if anyone is interested in finding out more about this they could give you a call?
[00:28:09] Bob Watada: They certainly can. The phone number of the campaign spending commission is 586-0285.
[00:28:16] Randall Roth: Okay Jerry, thank you for your call. Okay, can I make one more quick comment? You bet.
[00:28:20] Caller: Uh, I was asked to run for the US Senate in 1988 and I collected a few thousand dollars when I decided not to run I set all the money back and I think that's what people like Frank Fassi ought to do if they're not candidates.
[00:28:31] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you for your call. Let's go to Desmond Burn uh the head of Common Cause. Good morning Desmond.
[00:34:32] Bob Watada: Mark, uh I think Don Clegg said, you know, not in his uh recollection do people get bought. And we get this comment all the time that these amounts don't buy people and we our retort is, well, it just rents them for a while. And um, we are looking at the moment on the tobacco contributions. Reynolds, Philip Morris, the Tobacco Institute. And what's the quid pro quo on this? Well, of course, are we are we getting recoupment of Medicaid like other states? Uh are we trying to do all kinds of things to contradict the state policy towards a tobacco-free Hawaii? There is a quid pro quo for all of this and it's not that subtle sometimes. And it's setting Hawaii back and it's not disclosed, they don't have they don't disclose it down in the legislature, there are conflicts of interest of who they take money from. Desmond. And therefore we think we support Dudley on supported contributions and it would be much cheaper for everybody and um, I don't know why people I think uh Don Clegg or other people don't see that as a possibility or an impossibility. Why why is it not possible? Desmond, to make sure I understand what you're saying. You're saying 100% public financing of campaigns? Right. Otherwise you get the present kind of soft core corruption that we got in here now. Okay, well let's have a a quick response from Don Clegg again.
[00:35:58] Don Clegg: Well, I think we're back to the uh the practicalities of it. And I'm not a great fan of of government uh organizing and controlling uh how we should function in our society. I think we should we should do it ourselves. And those people who are going to be um moved on in un and unwarranted fashion, uh should be the the public will determine it. And you know, you you talk it like lobbying is a is a dirty word. Lobbying is not a dirty word. Lobbying is a part of the democratic process. It's a part of trying to influence your legislators to do the thing that you would like to have them do and it and it's a two-way street.
[00:36:32] Randall Roth: Uh Desmond, if if we went to 100% public financing, would we prohibit candidates from spending their own money and would we prohibit supporters from somehow um trying to get the word out on behalf of their candidate? Well, you could have some limitation like $100 per person uh so that nobody is beholden to anybody.
[00:36:52] Bob Watada: But but can you prohibit um What, their own money rich people uh running for office? I know there is constitutional problems on that uh if possible so that rich people don't buy their way in. Okay. uh on the thing. Okay. The other the other issue I might point out there is that is that uh this is a so-called uh free uh uh publicity given by the media and uh because somebody happens to be in the news, uh what you're suggesting is that incumbents now have an advantage but there's the free media that that you have a problem with and that the media then starts to control who gets elected.
[00:37:27] Randall Roth: That's Randy, one point. We Don was speaking about lobbying. We're lobbyists, common cause. There's nothing wrong with lobbying as long as it's above board and disclosed. We're talking about campaign contributions to influence people. Okay. Desmond, thank you. I really appreciate your call. Uh everyone's listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. We're talking about campaign finance in Hawaii. In the studio is Bob Watada, the executive director of the Campaign Spending Commission, and Don Clegg, who is a consultant involved in land use planning and processing. And who has been involved in a number of campaigns in the past.
[00:38:03] Randall Roth: If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821. For neighbor islanders, it's 1-800-955-8821. Um we've got on the line Arlene Kim Ellis, who has been involved uh with campaign finance issues on behalf of the League of Women Voters for many years. Arlene, are you there?
[00:38:23] Arleen Kim Ellis: Yes, I am.
[00:38:24] Randall Roth: Uh what are your thoughts on campaign finance in Hawaii?
[00:38:28] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well, the League of Women Voters strongly supports voluntary spending limits. We feel the limit should be low enough to limit excessive spending and high enough to allow candidates to communicate effectively with uh other voters, or with the voters.
[00:38:47] Randall Roth: Arlene, why would why would someone who has a lot more money than anyone else or who has the ability to raise more money than other people, why would they agree to to voluntary limits?
[00:38:58] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well, there are certain things, one of the things of course before we get into that. We want to do this so that we can level the playing field, rather than incumbents and challengers. And one of the inducements we feel should be that if you uh voluntarily uh or if if you comply with the voluntary spending limits, uh I think certain the things could be given to these uh candidates and this is under partial uh uh public financing.
[00:39:30] Randall Roth: I see. So We feel that, yeah. We feel that we give them the ability then uh possibly to have uh uh discounts in TV and broadcast uh um uh pay uh payments, you know. And also uh reduced posters rate. So rather than 100 percent, rather than 100 percent public financing, public money would be used uh more or less as carrots inducements to get them to behave a certain way, right? Exactly. I see. Well, let me get let me get some reactions to that from uh Bob and Don in the studio. Bob?
[00:40:04] Bob Watada: First of all, I want to say that if we go to 100 percent public financing, our estimate is that we're talking about approximately $45 million in election. And that's based upon the current number of candidates, but you have to remember that if you go 100 percent public finance, you're going to get everybody that just wants to run just for the purpose of getting public financing.
[00:40:22] Randall Roth: You'd probably have an explosion in the number of candidates, wouldn't you?
[00:40:25] Bob Watada: I think you would, and so that that's that's unrealistic. Even even at today's numbers, we're talking about $45 million.
[00:40:32] Randall Roth: Arlene, what what what's your response?
[00:40:33] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well what we are talking about is partial public financing, not complete public financing because it is true that we feel that candidates themselves should go out and solicit uh our campaign funds, but what we're doing is we're talking about large funds.
[00:40:50] Randall Roth: Uh-huh.
[00:40:50] Arleen Kim Ellis: In other words, the excessive funds, so that we can level the field. The uh the challenger has a very difficult time. The incumbent has a better chance of getting large funds and you know, whatever because he's already there.
[00:41:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Let me get uh Don Clegg's reaction to everything you've been saying.
[00:41:10] Don Clegg: Well, uh hi Arlene. I I agree with um uh much of what you you're saying in terms of uh, it'd be nice to to limit it to, so that's not too low and not too high and I now I have a problem, where is that? But I what I see all these laws trying to do in terms of limiting uh uh collection of funds is it, it's trying like trying to plug each hole in a sieve one at a time and there's always another one left over. Uh you can control the amount of money maybe that uh people can give and can receive, but then how about the in uh voluntary assistance? How about the person who gets free advertising or the person who gives a free uh a free pig and a free luau and a free this and pretty soon uh you've got in lieu of of uh contributions. How do you put money into that? The the the problem of this control of by government of a process which is so loose and has so many facets becomes an impossible one. And what it ends up doing is that making making many people criminals because it's a crime to violate these laws. And uh you you end up not knowing whether you are are or aren't, so you don't. And therefore, you've chilled the whole democratic process.
[00:42:20] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well, Bob O'cada, uh what Tata can uh clarify this, but my thought is that in-kind contributions are accounted as contributions in dollar figures. For example, if you donate a pig, the price of that pig is the amount that you're contributing to that candidate. Let's get let's get Bob's reaction that Bob, in terms of of in-kind contributions, uh a bunch of people come down and work, make phone calls, uh host get-togethers, whatever. Is Is it practical from your point of view to treat that as a dollar contribution?
[00:43:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Arlene, thank you. Uh We really appreciate your your input this morning. Um this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're talking about campaign finance. Our number is 955-8821, and we go to Scott in Kapahulu. Good morning, Scott.
[00:43:13] Bob Watada: Well, let let me talk about the in-kind contribution. The law says that any non-monetary contribution you have to report, but that doesn't include volunteers and people who provide services uh gratis to the candidate.
[00:43:22] Caller: Good morning, Randy. How are you today?
[00:43:24] Randall Roth: Just fine.
[00:43:25] Caller: Um my name is Scott Foster and I'm the executive director of a another lobbying group, Advocates for Consumer Rights. And uh our group was formed uh actually a year ago uh April 11th when Ralph Nader came to uh Hawaii to help us work on the uh auto insurance reform. And uh uh uh uh one comment uh uh whether we're talking about uh uh uh politicians being bought or or pushing the veil, I guess as as Mr. Clegg said a while ago, uh I I sort of agree with Mary George. Uh when uh there is a a concerted effort to gut the complete Ethics Commission as uh went on just a few weeks ago uh down at the legislature. Uh uh uh not a subtle action, uh one must ask where is the leadership in the legislature? Uh where were the people that should have stood up and said, wait a minute, uh this isn't right? Uh there was none of that. It took it took the uh the pressure of outside organizations such as advocates for consumer rights to even bring that issue forward. Uh the bill fortunately uh that was going to gut the Ethics Commission was pulled back by the author.
[00:44:39] Randall Roth: Scott, um, you know, I'm going to take that as a comment, but it reminds me of something I've been wanting to ask Bob Witata, uh and that is Bob, in your article this morning on the op-ed page, you said you now have greater independence and I'm curious, weren't you independent before, and to what extent are you not 100% independent now?
[00:45:02] Bob Watada: Under the uh previous law, Randy, the Campaign Spending Commission was directly under the Lieutenant Governor and the Lieutenant Governor did under the law have certain control over the commission. That's all been taken out. The commission now is independent from the Lieutenant Governor and basically only uh connected with Lieutenant Governor's office for what we call administrative purposes.
[00:45:27] Bob Watada: Uh while that's given us some more independence, we're still in the executive branch of government and we find ourselves in a situation. Let's just say that we had to monitor the governor. Or we do monitor the governor, but let's just say we had to take some action against the governor, we're in a position which would make it difficult to do that.
[00:45:42] Randall Roth: It's kind of a conflict. I mean, he appointed the commission members and you're in his um department. You're under him. Uh That would be a problem.
[00:45:51] Bob Watada: There is a problem and in some states have tried to rectify that. Of one one way of course to do it would be to put us in the legislative branch or some other branch, but that would be a problem too. That would also be a problem.
[00:46:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Scott, I don't know if that related to your your comment or not.
[00:46:06] Caller: Well, it actually leads into my second comment, which maybe is in the form of a question. Uh it and having having lobbied the legislature for for uh insurance issue reform personally for five years. This is the first year that I've been an official lobbyist raising money and all the the problems that go along with that. Uh it does no good uh to pass good law uh if there's no enforcement and that's what we're seeing at the insurance commission. Uh We begged, and I say we, community leaders have have begged the legislature before before the economic crunch happened uh to fund the insurance commissioner's office uh so that the existing laws could would have teeth in them. That's not done. Of course now it's easy to say, well, we don't have the money. Yeah. Mr. Wader said this uh he and he told the legislature in person last year, if you're not going to give the and I'm using insurance Commissioner as an example, uh if you're not going to give this agency, let's let's make it generic, the money they need to to do uh their mandated enforcement of the laws, then it's a benign hoax perpetrated on the uh consumers of Hawaii.
[00:47:17] Randall Roth: Well, you know, I I couldn't agree more and and Bob, I I think the main message of your piece in this morning's paper is that finally the commission has teeth and and and and part of that message is you're going to use it, you're putting uh folks on notice that uh that the rules are going to be enforced, but it really hasn't had teeth in the past, has it?
[00:47:38] Bob Watada: Well, there's been some teeth. Uh the the problem of course is that the funding that's behind the teeth is is it has been the problem and continues to be the be the problem. Uh Last year's legislature for example, did give us funding for one year for an investigator position. That's still subject at this point in time as to whether we're going to get funding for the uh coming years. Um They also gave us funding for what we call uh electronic reporting, a minimal amount, but at least that that is important to get us started in trying to get the information into computer so that we can analyze that information and and so forth.
[00:48:18] Randall Roth: It's amazing to me that prior to now you haven't been able to go out there and and actually do field audits and you haven't been able to to uh um impose fines yourself, it's just the automatic fines and you haven't had all this on the computer. Uh to me, you guys really have some teeth in what you're doing right now.
[00:48:35] Bob Watada: I I think we do. I think we were much further ahead now than we were a year ago. Okay.
[00:48:40] Randall Roth: Scott, thanks for you thank you for your call. We're getting down to the last 15 minutes or so and what I want to do is go back to some of the people that we've heard from earlier and get any additional thoughts they might have. We'll give our folks in the studio an opportunity to say a few things and and hopefully we'll have some time to take a few more calls as well. Let's first go to Neil Milner, who is um our Professor of Political Science at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Neil, are you there?
[00:49:03] Neal Milner: Yes, I am.
[00:49:04] Randall Roth: Uh you've listened to the whole show.
[00:49:06] Neal Milner: Yes.
[00:49:07] Randall Roth: What do you think?
[00:49:08] Neal Milner: Well, I think two things. I think first of all that uh people are starting to identify what the problem historically has been in the state, then and and uh what it we can't be sure it won't continue to be, and that's the problem of implementing laws. I mean, I'm I'm uh uh gladdened to hear what's happening at least on paper to the uh Commission. But I think we're going to have to wait and see just about whether the historic pattern that the state has had of creating laws and not enforcing them um Okay, I agree with you. That's that's a main concern that has come up. Right. I think the other thing that I want to just add uh is to say that sometimes when people are talking about corruption, they have to understand that it's not just a question of campaign spending. And that uh there are a lot of things that are wrong with the way people act and there are a lot of ethical violations that may occur in the legislature that don't occur simply because of uh the campaign spending laws and and it sounds as if sometimes in in this discussion that we're mixing the two things up. I just want to remind people that there is more wrong out there with uh government um than can be explained by campaign financing.
[00:50:17] Randall Roth: So even a perfectly written law wouldn't necessarily change human nature?
[00:50:21] Neal Milner: Well, I don't think it's human nature. I think that there are that we have to remember that things that that don't happen in this state that should happen or things that happen that are wrong don't just happen because of campaign financing.
[00:50:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you. I think Don Clegg had a comment to that.
[00:50:37] Don Clegg: Well, I guess I think there's probably more influence uh in utilized uh with friends and relatives where no money crosses palms or anything and and and and again it's sort of what's the matter with with things that get influenced if if it happens to be what you believe in then it's right. If if it's if it's not what you believe in then it's probably wrong. So uh influence is the name of the democratic process. Uh Neil, thank you. We really appreciate your participation this morning.
[00:51:03] Randall Roth: Oh, you're welcome, Randy. Let's go to Kioni Dudley who was a candidate for governor uh in 1994. Good morning again, Kioni.
[00:51:10] Kioni Dudley: Good morning. Uh any thoughts on things that you've heard since the last time we heard from you? Yes, well I'd like to clarify some of the things I said. In the in the first place, I'm not um I'm not sure that people realize that there are different kinds of corruption. You know, that when I when I said that uh people are corrupted by the time that they are elected and that people are fought uh in the election process. You know, it really works down to where it's a simple thing like access even.
[00:51:37] Kioni Dudley: When a person is really tired and uh they come into their office and they've got uh 25 people they're going to call, and there one of those 25 people is somebody who has given them a big hunk of money. You know, if if they're going to call one person it's going to be that person. And what I'm saying is the public is at a disadvantage because of this whole idea of financing people in the elections and by the time that they get in there, they have obligations to people just because they've received money.
[00:52:08] Kioni Dudley: Now, you know, no matter how you try to get around it, that does exist and I call that corruption. I I I find I find that to be a corruption of the person, a corruption of uh what they're going to be doing in the office and I do think that that really is a disservice to the rest of the public, the poor guys who really need to be able to get to their legislators and who can't.
[00:52:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Kioni, thank you. Uh Don Clegg has a response.
[00:52:33] Don Clegg: Again, I can speak from from some experience. I tell quite frankly I did not keep a list by my phone of contributors uh in order of of size and uh and and I did a lot of fundraising in uh in the times I was uh in in the city administration there and I have to say that um I I forgot who gave what and maybe that was intentional but uh and I don't know about the other people did that as well. You know if if they hear that Don contributions might go down.
[00:53:05] Don Clegg: Uh there people give for many reasons. Uh a lot of them give to so-called by insurance and uh they never know what they're buying. The answer is most of the time, nothing. So so listeners know what you're talking about, I think I know what you're talking about. Some people actually make big contributions to every candidate just because they don't want to be hurt. That's right and each candidate goes and sees how much the other guy's given to how much they've given to the other guy, too. Okay. Randy Yes. I think that, you know, year after year after year when a legislator is there, he knows who is giving them money and I really think that when Joe Blow calls from Hopoken, you know, and really wants to try to get to his legislator and uh the legislator only has so much time and can only get back to so many people. You know, the the the poor little guy is the guy who really is left out.
[00:53:51] Don Clegg: Okay. Kioni I think he's uh more likely to call anti anti Josie back than than his contributor. So, it's not just big money, it it might be a family, friends, whatever. Okay. Is that bad? I can't I don't think so. Kioni, thanks a lot for your call. I really appreciate your participating in our conversation this morning. Let's go again to Red Morris, who is a professional lobbyist. Red, are you there?
[00:54:12] Red Morris: Yeah.
[00:54:13] Randall Roth: Um any thoughts on what you've heard since the last time we heard from you?
[00:54:16] Red Morris: Well, I I've been doing this legislative process here for about 33 years and uh I haven't uh access uh to me is participating in the process and it's not only one-sided by giving a contribution. It's being there. And that's how you get access. And they keep seeing you and they keep, you know, and you don't ring the bell on every issue. And to me, that's Don Clegg is is absolutely correct. I don't think anybody is sitting there keeping a a list to say, hey, uh you contributed $1,000 or $2,000 or whatever it was. Uh I don't think uh anyone uh is doing that but I when when you're down to the last week in the process uh, hey, they're going to look at somebody and say, what can this person bring to the table? And they want an answer, they want they want to they want to know what's going on.
[00:55:09] Randall Roth: They want information.
[00:55:10] Red Morris: They want information. See, Red, right right there is that what access is is be able to provide them information and they know where it's coming from and they know how it's tainted or it's not tainted or what have you. We have a response from Don Clegg. Now, I just had to say there's how the misinterpretation comes from you said bringing to the table. Is that above the table or below the table? Always above the table.
[00:55:29] Don Clegg: Well, yeah, that's what I mean. Uh the the the term bringing to the table means in many of these people's eyes just pure cash money and influence. Uh Let me see what Bob Witata has to say about that one.
[00:56:00] Bob Watada: Well, again, I think I agree with Don and that uh just because somebody gives you money, I don't think that the at least based upon experience I've had working with legislators, they don't look at the money and say, well, because because so and so is giving me money, I'm going to listen to him more than I'm going to listen to somebody else. I have just not seen that at all.
[00:56:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Red, thank you for your participation this morning. We go to Arlene Kim Ellis again, who is a spokesperson for the League of Women Voters. Good morning again, Arlene.
[00:56:18] Arleen Kim Ellis: Good morning.
[00:56:20] Randall Roth: Uh any additional thoughts?
[00:56:22] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well, I want to discuss uh a bit further about living leveling the playing field for the candidates and specifically, I want to talk about the inequity of fundraising capability. Incumbents uh who are are in two and four-year uh terms have the capability of having 1 to three years head start on the challengers in their fundraising. Because the minute they're elected the next year, they begin to raise funds although they're not actually uh um signed up to uh to run for office again. The challenger, however, has only one year. The year of the election is the only year that he has to to raise funds. And so we think that this
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: equity should be addressed by the uh campaign uh uh finance uh commission.
[00:57:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Let me get a reaction from Bob Watada, who's the executive director of the uh Spending Commission.
[00:57:10] Bob Watada: Well, let me comment on that by by saying this, that it's true that the incumbent has an advantage, but what can you do about it? There's not very much you can do about it. Um, I have worked with various legislators and and take for example, just a legislator in your community, and look at all of the community meeting that individual goes to. He he or she goes to every single neighborhood board, goes to every single community organization, is out there in the community, is seen in the community, and participates in the community in many, many different organizations, and that's that's hard work. That's a lot of hard work. They they sacrifice family, they sacrifice a lot of things. But that's what the advantage that the incumbent gets. And I think that if if somebody else does that in the community, they would have that advantage, too.
[00:58:02] Randall Roth: Bob Clegg? Or Don Clegg?
[00:58:04] Don Clegg: Uh you know, people think the incumbent has the great advantage and and there's a lot to that. On the other hand, it's a double-edged sword. The incumbent is the one that's up there visible, and the incumbent is the one who has the opportunity to make the mistake. And a mistake that's made by an incumbent uh is is not easily forgotten by by the electorate. And the the challenger is always sitting there waiting for that mistake and if that mistake happens, the challenger jumps right in. So um while in raising funds the incumbent uh may have the advantage, I think that uh that it it also keeps the incumbent on his toes to to not make the mistakes but they're they're just very visible, which which the challenger is not.
[00:58:46] Arleen Kim Ellis: Well, since fundraising and money is so important in elections, the the challenger has to have some opportunity to be able to raise funds also. And whatever I I I I don't know what the procedure would be and I'm not saying that you know, certain things should be done and so forth, because that is not what we have uh done, you know, in terms of trying to find out what the uh uh solutions are. Because we feel if we do that, then the commission has no work to do. But we think that the commission should have, should think very uh uh seriously about some way of allowing uh either allowing challengers to do fundraising prior to the year of the election, or uh perhaps saying that the incumbents can go and do the community service, etcetera. Whatever, but may not as a matter of fact, actively hold fundraising events.
[00:59:47] Randall Roth: Sounds like a pretty reasonable suggestion and our our guests in the studio are nodding. They think it's something worth uh pursuing?
[00:59:53] Don Clegg: Well, as far as challenger is concerned, they can be raising funds at any time they want to. There isn't anything in the law that prohibits challengers from raising funds 2, 3, 4 years in advance. and some challengers do, in fact, do that.
[01:00:04] Bob Watada: I think the state law also calls for one fundraiser in the 4-year period for a 4-year uh office, so that the number of fundraisers is the same for a challenger as an incumbent.
[01:00:12] Randall Roth: I'm sure we get into ambiguities as to what a fundraiser is, don't we?
[01:00:15] Arleen Kim Ellis: Excuse me, even though that challenger has not yet declared for office, my understanding is that you do not hold a fundraiser until you declare for office.
[01:00:26] Don Clegg: Under the under the law, uh you can hold a fundraiser at any time, three, four, five years before before you even announce that you're going to be a candidate.
[01:00:34] Randall Roth: But but isn't this part of the problem is defining who's a candidate and who isn't and doesn't that go to what they can be spending on for example the the question of of Frank Fossi's expenditures now. Doesn't that go to whether or not they're a candidate whether or not there's a campaign?
[01:00:48] Bob Watada: The law's been changed. Now what the law says is that if you spend $100, I'm sorry, if you spend any money towards your election or get a contribution of $100 or more, you're a candidate.
[01:01:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Arlene, thank you very much. We really appreciate your participation this morning.
[01:01:04] Arleen Kim Ellis: Certainly.
[01:01:04] Randall Roth: We're in the last couple of minutes and I want to give each of you one minute to either add to the conversation or emphasize something that's already been said. Let's start with Don Clegg.
[01:01:13] Don Clegg: Okay. I wanted to get back sort of these these the Honolulu laws which I think are atrocious. And you talk about the City and County of Honolulu. City and County of Honolulu laws and uh and uh it's uh this issue of campaign assistance is particularly insidious uh where you can't hold signs or hold a coffee hour or telephone for somebody. The definition of who is a lobbyist is so broad uh it includes the landowners. Well, everybody who owns the fee in their property is a landowner. So they're they cannot give campaign assistance, they cannot give campaign funds.
[01:01:42] Randall Roth: Wait, wait, wait a minute.
[01:01:44] Don Clegg: Landowners are exempted from this terrible law and only people who don't own land are subject to it? No, no. Well, they're not exempt. Landowners cannot give campaign assistance.
[01:01:55] Randall Roth: So so I'm I'm a criminal if I'm giving campaign assistance under this law?
[01:01:59] Don Clegg: You you're approaching uh uh just definitely the stupidity of this law that we have.
[01:02:03] Randall Roth: And I guess this is uh part of the problem and then in your article you point out that that the City and Counties own lawyers say it's unconstitutional, the prosecutor says it's unconstitutional. So it's a problem, law.
[01:02:12] Don Clegg: The prosecutor will not prosecute and that and neither neither will the and the uh the Corporation Council. So, and it's a criminal offense. So what you've just done is just clouded and chilled the whole democratic process of of uh campaigns with this law and somebody's got to take it out and and get rid of it.
[01:02:27] Randall Roth: And your article this morning says when people are well intentioned trying to to make a a perfect system, they end up with something like this that's often times counterproductive.
[01:02:35] Don Clegg: So you just it just it's just a chilling effect and people say, I I I'm not going to take a chance, and nobody participates in in the government process.
[01:02:42] Randall Roth: Uh, Bob Watada.
[01:02:43] Bob Watada: One quick comment. I think that uh has been stated here before is that you, you know, you can't make a law, you cannot make a law so tight that uh you're not going to get any kind of so-called cheating. I think that's unrealistic and I think that more most important for for for the law that we have is basically disclosure, disclosing uh who your contributors are and disclosing how you spend your money. And to that extent, what we're trying to go toward is to do more in terms of electronic reporting so we can get this information on the internet for example so that people can see. And that's that's truly what we're trying to accomplish.
[01:03:20] Randall Roth: That'd be great. And I like the way your article ends this morning, campaign finance laws will be doggedly enforced, no exceptions, no excuses. I like that.