Ethnic Relations: Are We Getting Along?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-05-19
Guests: Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor (Professor of Ethnic Studies, University of Hawaii); Jonathan Okamura (Professor, University of Hawaii); Peter Manicas (Professor, University of Hawaii); Amy Agbayani (Administrator, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:08:53

[00:00:07] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM and rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8 on KIFO 1380 AM. Our format today is a little bit different. Instead of having a live call-in, we've assembled an audience here at the studio, and they're going to be asking questions and making comments that our guests will respond to. In our live audience, we have a number of high school juniors and seniors from different high schools here on the island, including Kaiser, Punahou, Kamehameha, and McKinley. Today's topic is a question: Are we getting along?
[00:00:53] Randall Roth: It's a potentially sensitive but terribly important question that may or may not have a simple answer. With me in the studio to talk about our question this morning is Davianna McGregor, Peter Manicas, Jim Mee, and John Okamura. Davianna Pomaikai McGregor is an associate professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, a historian of Hawaii and the Pacific. Her ongoing research endeavors have focused on documenting the persistence of traditional Hawaiian cultural customs, beliefs, and practices in rural Hawaiian communities, including Molokai, Puna, Kau, Kona, and Waianae, and she is one of the editors of the ethnic studies textbook, Our History, Our Way and Ethnic Studies Anthology.
[00:01:45] Randall Roth: She is a member of the Protect Kahoolawe Ohana and serves as vice chairperson of the Hawaiian Sovereignty Election Council. Peter Manicas describes himself as a mainland haole. Peter married his wife from Hawaii some 35 years ago. They raised their family on Long Island while Peter taught at Queens College of the City University of New York. He took an early retirement so that the family could, quote, come home. He is currently director of liberal studies at UH Manoa. Peter has written some nine books and dozens of articles. These span a range of disciplines, including philosophy, history, psychology, political science, and sociology. James Mee was born and raised in Hawaii.
[00:02:31] Randall Roth: He attended Williams College and got his law degree from the University of California at Berkeley. He presently is a partner with the Honolulu law firm of Ashford and Wriston, where he concentrates in the areas of real property, constitutional law, and Hawaiian rights. Although he is part Hawaiian, he has been skeptical about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement because he thinks it could divide people. Part of his skepticism has to do with the fact that he has close relatives by blood, marriage, and adoption who are Hawaiian, Japanese, Caucasian, Korean, and Filipino. He believes that many families in Hawaii are similar, and that it makes no sense to treat people differently based on ethnic background.
[00:03:10] Randall Roth: Our fourth guest is John Okamura. John is a researcher with the Student Equity, Excellence, and Diversity Office at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, and also lectures in the ethnic studies department. A social anthropologist by training, he has conducted field research on indigenous minorities in the Philippines and Filipino immigrants in Kalihi. He also has researched and written on various aspects of ethnicity and ethnic relations in Hawaii, including local identity and ethnic stratification. Well, to my four guests and to the live audience, good morning.
[00:03:46] Randall Roth: I guess John, we should start with you, um, because the advertiser took a poll some months ago, asking people here in Hawaii, whether they thought we get along, and the vast majority said yes. Um, Davianna and I were part of a group that went to Princeton a month or so ago, and we asked the the group of uh Hawaii high school graduates going to school on the East Coast, whether they thought the people in Hawaii got along and they overwhelmingly said yes. But I know from your article that'll be in the paper this morning, that you're not so sure that the answer is quite that definite, uh, tell us a little bit about it.
[00:04:26] Jonathan Okamura: I remember seeing that in the paper, um, a couple of months ago, like you said. And I wasn't very surprised because, uh, people in Hawaii do think that we get along better, than in other multi-ethnic societies. But I think there's a problem there in so far as we tend to glorify race relations to the extent that we, did not really pay attention to the kinds of inequalities uh, that exist in Hawaii among different groups.
[00:05:03] Jonathan Okamura: For me, all we need to do is look around us and take notice of the inequities that exist in terms of power, privileges, benefits, and these are obvious to everyone here. I think there are problems in terms of racism, prejudice, institutional discrimination, that need to be addressed and maintaining that we get along better than people in, say, Los Angeles, Bosnia, the Middle East, does not really solve the kinds of problems that we have to face uh here in Hawaii.
[00:05:24] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Peter Manicas, you're not originally from Hawaii, uh, you're you're married to a native Hawaiian, and so your children are are part Hawaiian. Uh, you've lived most of your life on the mainland. As you come to Hawaii, you've been here I guess a few years now, living here. Um, what are your thoughts on how well we get along?
[00:05:45] Peter Manicas: Well, I think John is right. I mean, comparing us to Bosnia is not a good comparison. Uh, we get along probably better than many many places, I'm sure. And here I would want to say we used to get along a lot a lot better than than we get along. And the problem is that the kinds of things that John is pointing to are not symptomatic, but I think are going to be very critically, you know, with respect to the future.
[00:06:09] Peter Manicas: I mean, it's it's everywhere been the case when people get along because they are passive, because they they accept their place, because they don't think that they have rights, because somehow or another fate has given them the the role that they play. If they get along on those terms, then at some point or another they're going to stop getting along. And what's happening I think here very definitely is that people are now saying there is injustice, there is inequity, things have got to change.
[00:06:38] Peter Manicas: We've got people now, you know, who are articulating that very loudly. I mean, very loudly. And some of them are articulating in ways that are violent. Um, you got folks out there with attitudes. You got people who are not polite, you got people shouting. Uh, now has got an adjective that precedes it regularly.
[00:06:56] Peter Manicas: That was not the case 30 years ago or 25 years ago. Um, these are these are things that we've simply got to face up to. And I frankly think that a big part of the problem is the unwillingness of what I want to call myself as a mainland haole is the fact that the mainland haole doesn't want to face up to that. The mainland haole, I think, does not understand this place because they do not understand its history. They do not understand what's going on such that when they experience blank haole, to them it's prejudice. To them, it's a disaster. No, you've got to understand that otherwise we're going to get along a lot worse.
[00:07:32] Randall Roth: Okay. And when you're talking about the the challenges we face right now, are you primarily focused on, um, what I'll call the sovereignty movement? The the the issues that surround uh, uh, Well, sovereignty is a is potentially it seems to me emancipatory. I mean, and here my point would be exactly that unless we do it right, we're going to be in a lot of trouble.
[00:07:52] Peter Manicas: Um, what counts as doing it right, they're remains contestable at this point. I mean, I think again, a critical variable will be how the mainland haole and local respond to that on the other side. In other words, you got the two kinds of contentious sides on this issue. Um, if if in fact, the haole and the non-Hawaiian local, right, I would want to distinguish those two, think that this is itself is an inequity, we're going to be in worse trouble. Um, I don't see why they should, but I'm afraid that there's a lot of air out there that's that needs clearing.
[00:08:25] Randall Roth: Okay. Jim Mee, I know you've described yourself as a a skeptic when it comes to uh the potential of of the sovereignty movement to bring us together. Um, tell us a little bit about it.
[00:08:36] Student: Well, I think to some extent I share the thoughts that Peter just raised. Um, you know, I I see sovereignty could be a good thing, but I I do see the potential that it could end up simply dividing people in the community more. For example, you could have this kind of backlash effect with other groups. So, I think my concern about sovereignty, I think it has to be approached very carefully because there are a lot of things that get wrapped up in it.
[00:09:02] Student: There's a question of culture, there's an economic question because I think a lot of the sovereignty movement has to do with questions about either monetary reparations or perhaps, uh, reallocation of land or other types of assets of the state. And all these things are going to have effects not just on Hawaiians, but the entire community.
[00:09:21] Randall Roth: Okay. Davianna, I know sovereignty is uh a very important issue to you. Any thoughts on what you've been hearing or or anything else relating to this question of the day, are we getting along?
[00:09:34] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: Well, I think we're getting along, it's just how are we getting along and I think, um, that native Hawaiians are looking at reconfiguring that way in which uh, we have ended up with the low lowest of the incomes among the different ethnic groups and the highest, um, health problems, especially incidence of cancer and heart rates, and heart disease. And, um, more than our share of, um, Hawaiian families who must have some kind of support from welfare to provide for our families and more than our share, certainly, of prisoners in in the adult um, prison and among the juveniles is more so.
[00:10:16] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: And so, um, I think we're as Hawaiians, we're looking to, um, reshape the way that our society has, um, through a long period of injustice, um, resulted in the the inequities that we, um, bear the burden of in today's Hawaiian society and we seek to begin that remedy by, um, seeking self-government governance and also to, um, more especially to have our national lands repatriated to us.
[00:10:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I want to invite members of our audience. If you have a question or a comment, if you'd like to start moving toward uh a microphone and while we're waiting for uh one or more of them to move up to the microphone, John, I want to ask you. I know you've done a lot of research, writing, and speaking about localism. And as a a mainland haole, uh, I found it quite confusing, uh, certainly for the few years that I was here and I'm not sure I have it straight yet.
[00:11:17] Randall Roth: Just uh who is local and uh why that particular divide would uh exist and what the the ramifications of it are? Could you tell us just a little bit about localism while we're waiting for one of our uh high school students to get to the microphone?
[00:11:33] Jonathan Okamura: Well, for me local uh, begins during the plantation period. I take a kind of historical uh view of the emergence of the term in terms of uh the subordination of Hawaiians and immigrant plantation groups to the halay oligarchy, uh, planter and merchant politician oligarchy during this period. And so there's a working class background to the groups that tend to be considered local uh, in Hawaii. That's why Halays, even though they've been here longer than any other group except Hawaiians, tend not to be considered local because they don't have that working class background uh, in Hawaii. But local now, tends to exclude a number of other groups, such as immigrants, mainlanders, uh, tourists, military.
[00:12:30] Jonathan Okamura: And for me, rather than seeing it in overly positive terms as being inclusive, or something shared among various groups of people coming to Hawaii, including this so-called blending of cultures into something local, I see it essentially as divisive because it sets up these boundaries among a number of different groups. Uh, I think this is a problem in the schools, for example. Um, and for me, I I rather not glorify the term.
[00:13:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Jim Mee, I notice you're you're nodding uh you're agreement or something else?
[00:13:08] Student: Well, I I think like a lot of concepts, localism has both positive and negative aspects. And you know, I, as an example of what I think is a positive aspect of localism, was if any of you had watched what was going on with the UH volleyball Rainbow Championship and the way that people behaved and the sort of cohesiveness there was among the people that went to you know, there's 4,000 people that went all the way to LA to see the Rainbows play. And there, there was a definite concept of localness that I thought was very positive.
[00:13:42] Student: And it didn't matter what race you were. It didn't really matter except you were there and you you you had this sort of feeling of all being together. So I think that's the positive part of it. I agree that you can have the negative part too, which is that people tend to get, I, you know, you can start looking at yourself as, this is my group, but certain other people can't belong, or I don't feel that they should be included. So I think there's two aspects.
[00:14:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we have a question or a comment from our audience.
[00:14:11] Student: Aloha, my name is Kaimi, and I'm from Nanakuli and I'd like to ask Mr. Manicas, um, being from the mainland, how did you or what did you have to do to acclimate yourself to society coming here and uh trying to readjust to attitudes?
[00:14:29] Peter Manicas: That's a good question. Uh, I had the good fortune, of course, of being married to a Hawaiian woman who who taught me quickly and fast, yeah. And I used to come back and forth a lot. And every time I came back, it was hard to go back to the mainland. Uh, I had also have the advantage that people think I'm Portuguese. So what can I tell you? But but part of it also has to do with what I think is generally available a lot of people. And here I make hook that comment to the to the to the recent comments we just had on local.
[00:15:00] Peter Manicas: I think that the one of the primary meanings of local historically was uh people who belong here. And and that that did not exclude those folks who didn't start here as it were. I mean, it was possible to be a local haole. And there was local haole was not a contradiction in terms. Not not in the slightest. But what it meant though, you see, quite critically and that's exactly your point, is that people who came here felt that they belong here because they came to know and love the place. They came to respect the values of the place, they came to to know what Hawaii was about as defined by the Hawaiians historically.
[00:15:38] Peter Manicas: They came to have an understanding of its history and of its fantastic powers and capacities and beauties and what made it different than New York City or California or Nebraska. And I see in the problem and I'm now seeing, exactly, is that there's too many folks who just think of this as California in the middle of the Pacific. It isn't. I mean, you're not going to belong here if that's your view of the place. If your view of the place, they come here and get a job and go surfing and then pack up and leave, forget it.
[00:16:09] Peter Manicas: We got too many folks like that here right now. And so therefore I I privilege the local concept, and I want to say we all should be local. Precisely. We all can't be Hawaiian, for sure. Right? For sure. But we all can be local, where local means belonging to the place, loving the place, supporting the place, and seeing keeping its specialness that that we have had and we've had the privilege of over the over these many years.
[00:16:37] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: Yeah, I think that um, the the local boundaries, um, is more I think where it becomes problematic is if in the case of the immigrants who are coming in from Southeast Asia is that they think they're coming to the United States. And this is not the United States. And so they need to also not only uh go through the the problem of adjusting to English and other kinds of um barriers to a become American citizens if that's what they so desire.
[00:17:09] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: But they also need to understand what is the culture of the people here and there are a lot of um conflicts that emerge because um, the especially over, I've noticed in neighbor islands, over resources.
[00:17:23] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: Sure. And the use of our ocean resources in particular that some of the immigrant groups don't know how to take care of the ocean resources and they take more than they should, and they take um, you know, the juvenile sizes when they should only take the adult sizes and it's meant a drain and a loss of a lot of our natural resources um, in the ocean and led to a lot of conflicts in our in our neighboring islands over you know, these ocean resources that have been protected for generations by native Hawaiian families. And now people who are clumsy don't understand the approaches and the values, you know, um abuse it.
[00:18:03] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: And from the other end, those resources have also been abused and and more dramatically um, by resort development and um, those who come here to profit off of our resources, and that has also had a devastating impact upon the Hawaiian people, more so than um, you know, those conflicts over uses of resources, but it's the the abuse for profit that has actually been more devastating. And um, again, it's when people come here not to live among the Hawaiian people and assimilate into the Hawaiian society, but come here to reproduce what they're in what in their image should be civilization or the American way of life and that's where the conflicts emerge.
[00:18:51] Randall Roth: I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Usually we take calls, but this morning we're just taking questions and comments from members of the audience. ers of our live audience who are juniors and seniors from various high schools here on Oahu. Uh if you'd like to catch the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO, that's 1380 AM at 8 o'clock, the entire show will be replayed. Well, we have another question or comment from our audience.
[00:19:18] Student: Well, um I'm Robert and I think I have a little bit of both. Well, Hawaii is sort of unique cuz, well, we are sort of like a middle or a connecting between mini various uh countries and cultures like um from United States, you come to Hawaii then you can go to maybe Japan and from Japan you can go back and from Polynesia you can go to Hawaii and you can go to the mainland. Well, um we are the middle of the ocean and we meet a lot of people in between stopping by and sometimes they stay here to live and you know, have a job, maybe have a family here. Well, um we meet a lot of people from all these countries and these some people oh, they stay here, we they have all these cultures, they all live here and um from that my school is like sometimes I keep thinking um immigration cuz well, we have a lot of Chinese um Koreans, um Filipinos. What school do you go to, Robert? Oh, I go to McKinley. Well, um they um those cultures, well, they keep to each uh to themselves, like the Koreans stick to each other, um Japanese, um Filipinos. Well, I'm Filipino, but well, I hang around with Japanese guys and I and into stuff and also I'm friends with um Koreans, Japanese like, I have friends on almost every culture group. But the only funny thing is, why can't um those culture um groups be friends with each other? I can be friends with almost anybody in my school. I mean, but sometimes we have fights between the Samoans and the um Vietnamese and sometimes we have like these little skirmishes between two different race groups. Right.
[00:21:20] Randall Roth: So, I what I think you're you're asking is is why can't the groups get along better than they do? You know from your own experience, it's possible. Yeah. But I think you're observing at your school at least that that there is a lot of tension between the various groups. Who would you like of our of our panelists to to respond to that comment?
[00:21:43] Student: How about Jim me?
[00:21:44] Student: Well, I I think what this demonstrates is, you know, there's different ways of looking at things. If you look at people as people and we'll find that we're going to have friends of all sorts of different groups. I think what you start running into is if you just start looking at people as being, this is a person from that group or a person from that group, you know, pretty soon people start breaking up into little camps where all of a sudden they feel they can't talk to each other anymore. And I think one of the things that I see positive about Hawaii is that a lot of people here are comfortable dealing with different groups. And I know on the mainland, you know, a lot of places on the mainland where you live in a small community and you only see a certain sort of person your whole life. And I think that's one of the things that we should kind of celebrate about Hawaii is that we have so many different kinds of groups here and the opportunities that we can get to relate to them as people. Can I can I get I get into? I mean, you were born and raised. You were born and raised here. Yes. Yeah. How about these other guys? Not. Um no, they're like they're just came here maybe four months ago and all that. Sure, sure. So, the so the the the question is that they they have got to be sort of socialized locally. I mean, in all honesty, and and that's something that's going to take a little struggle on all of our parts to get in with you. This is Peter Manikas talking and then I hear you challenging Robert to to teach some of the newcomers uh how it is that he gets along with people. That's right. Interesting. Well, I mean you can add to that, I mean there which you've got you got it. If you look at our marriage rates ethnically in in the in the in the last 40 years and you see them changing very dramatically. I mean, the Japanese marriage rate has has tripled. It's gone, it's now in excess of 50%. Filipino- Hawaiian out marriage rate has always been around 50%. The most fascinating thing is the how the out marriage rate, which has dropped precipitously in the last 30 years. That is not you see again, unimportant. And it's not also and it's going to also be the case to the extent to which you see you have these Asian groups he's talking about who are going to also collect and and not out marry, because that's going to change the character of this place just as much as the uh as the as the old days it was changing it in the opposite direction. Robert, anything else? I guess that's okay. Thank you very much. We have a another question or comment.
[00:24:01] Student: Yeah, my name is Lori Spuzak. I go to Kaiser High School and my comment kind of question was that how can we possibly encourage this local mentality and um um in the schools in our society when our government and economy encourages like this tourism and and it it it's it's uh mainly supporting those things. I mean, and how how can we, you know, adjust to that? How can we teach this localism in our schools and everything when we have to accept the tourism, the you know the foreign. Mm hm. Are they are they incompatible? Well, it depends what you mean by local. Um, part of my argument is regarding local identity, especially the uh greater significance of local beginning in the 60s is that it became it came to have this greater meaning other than people just born and raised here because of those kinds of changes that you've just described such as uh tourism, uh foreign investment and Hawaii expansion of uh development to the neighbor islands. Uh from those kinds of external forces of change, people came to have a greater appreciation of uh being from Hawaii and a greater appreciation of the people, the cultures, and the values that make Hawaii a special place. So, local for me is a form of resistance to these external forces of change because people want to uh maintain the the uh Hawaii that they've come to appreciate as opposed to uh the Hawaii that's turning more and more into California. So then can I ask a question? Um so then with that, you know, with that opinion, how are we going to turn our economy into something that'll support the local mentality. How can we turn like the economy into something that'll support an attitude of togetherness as opposed to this, you know, being against foreigners, you know. I mean cuz you what you what you're saying is it would kind of generate this mentality of, you know, you know, we appreciate the land, we appreciate the resources for what we've learned, you know, but how can we be against people who've grown up in different places like the Southeast Asians or whatever you said, um on different islands, you know, over overtaking the resources and everything. How can we be against that and like be I mean, of course we can be against that because it might be wrong to us, but to them, it's right. You know, how can we how can we bring this all together? And I think that's kind of what I guess we're here for. Really? Really good question. That uh that's it. Daviane, any thoughts on that? Well, of course, we're looking at how can we share our cultural values and pass it on from one generation to the next and and in in you know, and be inclusive of those who are entering into Hawaii at, you know, in the um educational system. Um a lot of the um basis for the perpetuation of our culture has to be rooted in our livelihoods. And so uh, for example, when I look at the Hawaiian people and our culture and our language and where has it been strongest? It has been strongest in our communities where the Hawaiian families have continued to rely primarily upon subsistence and upon a relationship to the land and to the resources, which it reinforces every day, every month, every year that rely special relationship to the land and therefore to the knowledge of the land that's been passed down through the ancestors. And in the case of local cultural uh customs, the core culture is Hawaiian, but it's and then it's it's been added on to from the different uh peoples, but it came together in the plantation community. And we've had those plantation communities uh until the 70s, I suppose they started all to run away to the Philippines or wherever. And so a lot of the the crisis in which we're looking at these cultural conflicts or changes is because is also due to the economic change that you pointed out that the plantation which used to provide the setting for the the the different ethnic groups to interact, it also provided that home base where you go back and you reconnect with those cultural practices and values in your community. Um now that the plantation communities are phasing out, we also see a lot of the basis for local cultural values and practices also kind of phasing out. And that's what it's what's at stake so much when we look at these issues of development or you know, increased development. Tourism has sort of maxed out in terms of more resort areas to open up. I mean the resort um model for development is not economically viable and they have to look at making the existing infrastructure for tourism more more efficient than trying to continue to expand and destroy more areas of our islands. But um I think to me it is um finding new ways to enforce and express and and celebrate our our common heritage or and our different shared cultural um experiences. And I see a lot of um hope in the new literature that's coming out in pigeon uh by Bamboo Ridge Press and all of the local literature, the Kumukahua, the plays which which uh go back and reflect upon those common shared experiences that we've had as local people and more expression of that. Uh and and the more that that can I think we can we can develop the cultural uh experiences together and and reflect and celebrate those. And I think that would help to build this appreciation among the the newcomers about what is that what it is that we value about living here in Hawaii and and each other's cultures as well. Lori, does that uh respond to your question or do you want to rephrase it to directed to another guest? That kind answers it, but I was more getting at how can our economy turn from, you know, this tourism into into something that'll accommodate, you know, this social attitudes, you know, like We we're Peter Manikas. Yeah, let me let me jump in on that. I mean, because I think I think it's an opportunity that could be exploited exactly in the sense that John raised it. I mean, the the idea of local, if it starts out in the plantation, then becomes, I think, articulatable precisely in the in the in the minds of many people, uh as of as a as a piece of resistance. Now that has not been exhibited politically in this town. And I mean we sent we there was a a a passing flash at it uh with the idea that we would have power, right? It It didn't happen. It just didn't happen. Uh it still could happen. I mean, what worries me a whole lot, you see is that that potential which is there and remains there is not being exploited by the people who ought to be exploiting it. Instead, what we're getting I think, you know, is again a kind of uh resurgence of a mainland version of the Democratic Party and that is not going to be in any way, I think conducive the kind of solution that you're talking about that we all wish and hope for.
[00:38:00] Student: We also have the subsistence sector in our society. It has continued to be there from generation to generation in our neighbor islands. So even the question that was asked earlier about the economy, is mostly looking at what's happening here on Oahu. Oahu is desperately dependent upon tourism, but the neighbor islands are not. And the Hawaiian culture, which is strongest on the neighbor islands, is also not totally dependent on tourism. It's more dependent upon making sure our resources are there so that people can continue to have subsistence as a viable alternative. Not perhaps for for their entire income, but at least to supplement a significant portion of their um their total, you know, livelihood.
[00:38:46] Student: We did a study on Molokai, we found out that on Molokai, for example, all of the all the different ethnic groups, get 35% of their diet from subsistence activities, fishing or hunting or gathering of food, or planting. And among Hawaiian families, it's higher, 45% of their diet comes from subsistence activities. And we've seen this also did studies in the Puna district, and it's the same thing. There's a high rate of a proportion of the diet that comes from subsistence activities.
[00:39:16] Student: So we have to look at Hawaii in a whole and we we tend to look at Oahu as being what what life in Hawaii is, and it's really not and and we have to make room for or at least acknowledge that the subsistence sector is still an important part of our sector, of our community, and people work very hard, but they don't necessarily that's not necessarily reflected in income. Let's give Mark a chance to respond to what he's been hearing, and then we'll move on.
[00:39:42] Student: Well what I heard from Mr. Manicus. Sorry, um is that we are in a cyclic kind of economy where people that start off in in the um in a poor neighborhood are as he said are done by 12, they have less, less hope. So if we are in a cyclic economy and people who start low, stay low and people who start high, stay high. Is there a really a chance that we can somewhat be equal in the sense that we can share share together and live together and get along much better, if there is no really hope, there's no real hope of really changing our our classes or such case or where we fit or where we fit in society. So how can we get together if there is no viable way to get closer to each other.
[00:40:32] Student: Well there is. I mean, we've done it doing a good job with it. Peter Manicus wants to give a response.
[00:40:37] Peter Manicas: Yeah, because the University of Hawaii is a is a perfect example. I mean look at the number of Hawaiians and Filipinos who were in the University of Hawaii 20 years ago as compared to today. I mean, I've got some numbers if you want. But but but we made enormous strides in that regard. Of course, see, that's in some sense, part of the problem. That the the the the the sorts of things that he's talking about in increasing expectations, which then, you know, find difficulty being realized, but but plainly we are in no way have we satisfied the idea of equality of opportunity in this country. I mean, not in Hawaii, not in New York, not any place else. And it's a goal that we should continue to strive for and it's it's worthy. And we know the kinds of things that have to be done to do it. We're just not willing to do it. We lack the political will, that's what we like.
[00:41:19] Student: Want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Uh instead of taking calls this morning, we're taking questions and comments from high school juniors and seniors who are here at public radio studio and so please don't call in. This morning just sit back and and listen to the the wisdom of these high school students and the responses to it from our our guests. Our guests in the studio this morning are Peter Manicus, a professor at the University of Hawaii. He's in charge of liberal studies there. Jim Me, who's an attorney with Ashford and Riston. Daviana McGregor, who is a professor in the ethnic studies department at the University of Hawaii. And John Okamura who lectures in ethnic studies and is a researcher with the student equity excellence and diversity office at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Again, don't call in this morning. We're taking all of our questions and comments from our uh our audience in the studio, who are high school juniors and seniors from a variety of high schools, including Kaiser, Punoho, Kamehameha and McKinley. We have another question or comment.
[00:42:20] Student: Hi, my name is Camille. I go to and I have a question for Daviana. You kind of answered it a little bit, but um tourism right now is one of the biggest things here and it generate the most income. And to me, it doesn't tie in with the traditional Hawaiian values or um I guess you could say it's Americanizing us more and we're most of the things that are here are going to accommodate people like tourists because they are the ones that bring in income. So I was wondering if you had if it was if you thought it was possible to have alternatives in the future to tourism, and like how realistic they would be.
[00:43:07] Student: Yeah, I'll I'll start off and John's going to pick up. Uh, well, you know that I think that in agriculture, we'll be diversifying and because the plantation has such a monopoly on the economy for so long, we were all led to believe we could never have a diverse uh diversity in agriculture and and yet we we we can. And so I I believe that probably we'll begin to branch out into other agricultural enterprises. But the other thing is that the a lot of the communities on the neighbor islands are looking at what is called community based economic development. And rather than looking at having an economy that's suitable to a continent, we look at what's an economy, what are economic uh enterprises that are suitable for our islands and which can utilize the resources without destroying them, but lead to sustainability of our resources. And so um I think that that's the direction that a lot, especially in the neighbor islands and where um Hawaiian people are looking at making that transition from subsistence activities into the market economy is to look at community based economic development as a bridge between those two sectors. And John, you wanted to
[00:44:18] Jonathan Okamura: uh Serg who's now uh Director of of um what's it called, DB DBT? DBED. Yeah. Uh several years ago, when he was uh still with the university, he had a proposal in terms of diversifying the economy in terms of uh knowledge based industries. And he said the place to start is University of Hawaii. Because this is where we can train our young people to be the the providers of these uh uh these services. And um I I think he's he he's raised some very good questions. Why do we have a school of travel industry management, for example? Why do we have the uh food service and hotel management programs in the community colleges, these are uh public subsidies of the tourist industry, as opposed to having uh a much larger school of computer science for development of uh computer programmers, analysts uh at the university. We have one of the largest computers in the world on Maui, uh the supercomputer there um and these are the kinds of industries that need to be developed in order to diversify the economy that would keep people from uh leaving, going to the mainland because they see no future for themselves or their families.
[00:45:24] Student: Okay. Camille, did that respond to your question? Yeah, pretty much. But I just wondered if you had anything specific right now in mind, you know, um I'll tell you what. We're going to do a program sometime soon where we have some economists and and business people, who who think they've got some real good answers to your question. And when we do that show, I'm going to tell them about uh the question that you raised and and we'll try to get some real specific ideas for breaking away from from our tourism dependent economy. Thank you, Camille.
[00:45:56] Student: We have another question or comment. We have an abundance of people and they're debating who's going to step to the microphone. There we go. Sorry. My name is and I'm from. Um just to I'd like to ask Mr. Okamura. Sorry. Um. I thank you. I I thought I would be the only one who would butcher people's names. Thank you, you've made me feel much better. But I just like to respond I guess to to what said that I I I do believe that in order for to survive in the future, we need to become a part of the global economy and um subsistence as an economic basis is not wrong. I'm involved in the Wine backyard aquaculture program. It's a community based economic program in in the Liwe district. Um, but I do believe as Hawaiians, in order to survive in the future, we're going to have to realize that uh any type of government that the Hawaiians, uh native Hawaiians want to establish, they have to address the fact that we cannot tuck ourselves away and uh revert or not be aware of things that are going on around us. Um, tourism, yes, it doesn't um address cultural issues. It may not be one of the best industries for Hawaiian culture, being that it might exploit some things about Hawaii, but um it's been one of the major industries that has brought profit to the state, and as a nation in the future, optimistically, sorry, as a nation in the future, um it may be one of the biggest industries that we we may have to rely upon and we can't I don't think we can let um such a stable, even though it's sometime referred to as not a stable, basis of economy but something that's pretty stable, um just slip away or be thought as uh evil or, you know, not part of something we'd like to think of in the future as being a part of the Hawaiian nation. But just a question to pose to um Mr. Me, because he made a comment earlier about um um the the unification of people you know that went to the mainland and supported the UH volleyball team, that was made up of I'm I'm sure many different cultures that exist here in Hawaii. Why do you think it can only happen here or why why is it, according to, well, what I've read so far and what what you've written, only happening here in Hawaii and not in in other places in the world?
[00:48:29] Student: Well, I think it it can happen in other places in the world. I think we've been sort of fortunate here that we've we've had the ability to have exposure to a lot of different groups and, you know, maybe that's something that is really a positive for us that, you know, that that we are able, perhaps, or we should look at emphasizing being able to interact with different people around the world, because I agree with you, I think, you know, we have values here, but we cannot ignore the fact that there's this larger world out there and everybody's talking about that everything's becoming more globalized. In a sense, that's a positive for us because we are able, because of where we're situated, and the different sort of experiences we have to deal with a lot of different cultures here. Um, you know, so I don't see it as a negative. I I would like to see other places have that same sort of ability that we have here. Um having said all that, I don't know how you get to that point. You know, I think the problem with Hawaii is we've always been dependent on sort of one big type of economy. First, it was the plantation economy, now it's the tourist economy. And the problem is, it's a very hierarchical hierarchical type of structure. You got some people at the top that really benefit, and you got a lot of other people down at the bottom who aren't, you know, doing as well and I think you've got to try to get out of that to a certain extent.
[00:48:48] Student: Okay. What I would like to do is is kind of concentrate for a while on on comments and and questions from the audience. So, we're going to try uh to have our our uh our guests up front in the room stay as little as possible for the next uh 10 minutes or so and and hear as much as we possibly can from those of you in the audience. Uh Lori?
[00:50:08] Student: Well I kind of had a comment. Um, if we focus solely on tourism and as you said it's kind of the hierarchy kind of, you know, does focus on that at this point in time, and if we rule out, you know, the sub how subsistence, you know, type of lifestyle, then what I see happening in our future and the future of Hawaiians, in the future of any Native American people, you know, what I see happening is their race is dying out because of the fact that they are genetically brought up to live these certain lifestyles, their food they eat. I mean, even the fact that you said, you know, um Hawaiians are more susceptible to disease, Hawaiians are more susceptible to this poverty type situation. Um, we can't rely on taking people away from from that kind of environment. We have to kind of focus on accepting them and we I I we I think we at this time have a problem with that. I think we have a problem with wanting to force everyone into, you know, education like um for travel industry management and for computer technology, but why why isn't anyone focusing on agriculture in schools anymore? You know, why isn't that an uh an esteemed profession? Why isn't farming, you know, something that we revere, you know? And I think until that attitude, you know, is glorified, you know, and until that, you know, that kind of lifestyle is glorified, I think that we're going to have a problem. We're going to have people dying out, we're going to have our societies in chaos. I mean, the we I the problem is acceptance and we don't have that, and that's my comment.
[00:51:50] Student: Thank you, Lori. We have we have some more people in the audience uh going to make a comment or? Okay, my name is and I'm from Punaho school. This is a question. Um since our economy relies so heavily on tourism and right now there is no alternative which which can raise that much money, um is there a way to make the tourists localized? Um can we teach them how to become local or um allow them to bring back part of Hawaii to the mainland or to their home country? Okay, how about a a quick response from who wants it? Jim me?
[00:52:28] Student: Well, you know, I I think you get a lot of plastic culture here when you're a tourist. And you know, if especially if you're a local, you kind of cringe and it makes you a bad tourist when you go around the rest of the world because no matter where you go in the world, if you see the same sort of plastic fake stuff being sold out there, you know, you just immediately react. I mean, I do think there is room that we can make a more genuine experience for people coming here and and that really is something we've got to be doing.
[00:52:55] Student: Okay, again we want to spend as much time with our audience hearing them as we possibly can.
[00:53:01] Student: Hi, it's me again, from. Anyway, just to address the comment that Lori made, um it's hard Well, I shouldn't say it's hard, but okay. I grew up fishing um with my father and it's very it's very tough work. And he set me to get an education so I wouldn't have to work that hard. And I think in this society, that's what it's all based upon is getting an education so that you don't have to work as hard to be a successful. Um, I I lived um in Nanakuli with my family all my life, and I I grew up fishing and I it's it's a tough job, but I I I I think I've gained the most from it. However, in a progressive society as, you know, um the person made earlier that we we live in, it's it's rather I shouldn't say backwards but it it as as coming from Hawaiian point of view or as far as what I think is Hawaiian, um it's against the person's benefit for them not to get an uh education or try to compete in the world that's surrounding them, a global, in a global sense. Self subsistence, there's nothing wrong with that, but the education, the the knowledge, the ability to have that choice to go out there and compete with other people is I think the incentive in this situation.
[00:54:32] Student: I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise radio show. We're not taking calls this morning. All of our questions and comments are coming from our our live studio audience, which is made up of high school juniors and seniors from Kaiser, uh Punoho, Kamehameha and McKinley. And uh so we hope you're enjoying the show, but don't call us the way you normally do, because we're simply not receiving calls. Um, Lori, if you could briefly respond to that and then what I'm going to do is encourage those folks who who haven't said anything to come up and and share what they have to say. The comment that I have to make is that um who is going to take the place of the fisherman? Who is going to, you know, be in that. I I can understand the education. I encourage education, but who is going to be supplying us with our basic necessities? And that's what people kind I I I guess what I'm saying is, you know, we need the opportunity for as an encouragement of both occupations as opposed to a stress on one. You know?
[00:55:35] Student: Okay. Great. Well, we're we're getting down to the last five or 10 minutes and uh we've got some people that we haven't heard from at all. Go ahead. Hi, I'm Mariana and I go to Kaiser high school. And I would like to ask like the professors that work at UH, um how the um students that are brought up and raised in Hawaii, how they interact with the um students that come from the mainland and or like do they like teach them like the like the quote like a low spirit or just how they all get along at on the campus of UH.
[00:56:05] Jonathan Okamura: I imagine there's some distance too, but over time if students stay long enough, they they become much more familiar with Hawaiian culture and or local society as a result of living here and having opportunities for interacting with students both in and out of class. I like working at the university because I I think it's one of the safest places in Hawaii can be and it's a very congenial place.
[00:56:32] Student: Yeah, my my New York experience would suggest that in some some ways New York City, you know, which is multicultural, also multiracial, very much so, in some in some ways there was more kind of social interaction at Queens College than there is at UH Manoa. And that's interesting observation to make, if you think about it for a second. That's partly of course the function the fact that the the communities here are a little bit more distinct as well. Okay, we have another question or comment from the audience. My name is Gina, I go to And this is kind of um a comment off of Lori's comment.
[00:57:07] Student: She says that why don't we move to a more agricultural society, but with Hawaii's economy moving towards technology, right? How could we go back to a more agricultural society? I mean, there's always going to be that small percentage that fish or farm. But um I'm from the mainland, so I'm not too sure about the Hawaiian sovereignty, but is there a way that the Hawaiians can like compromise on um like the education of technology or what do they really want, you know? I I I'm not too sure where where they stand with all this technology and Okay. Stop coming.
[00:57:46] Randall Roth: Okay. We can. Camille?
[00:57:47] Student: Hi. Um I just wanted to comment about hers. Like, I don't think that um what Laurie was saying is that we should go back and only focus on agriculture, but it's more like he was saying a diversification. You know, we need to If we're dependent on any one thing, then we're more vulnerable that way, because if one system fails, then we need something else to fall back on. Yeah.
[00:58:14] Randall Roth: Okay, great. Um you know, those of you who haven't spoken up yet, I want to remind you the the topic of the day is a question, are we getting along and especially if you've got something real, I think everything we've been talking about is is related to that. But if you've got something real specific, especially your own personal experience, your feelings about how well people get along or don't get along here in Hawaii, and especially why that is and and how we can promote people coming together, how we can avoid anything that would have a tendency to to splinter us apart.
[00:58:49] Randall Roth: Um so we have the microphone is available. Would someone like to to step up and and share a question or a comment about any of that.
[00:59:03] Student: I feel that for students to get along um between ethnics group here in Hawaii is a lot easier, but um with like people that grow up and are raised here and they are like quote Hawaiian at heart, sometimes they get like um discouraged for not really having Hawaiian ancestry in their blood. And I think that's why it's kind of hard for um other students who are of different ethnic races or that come from other places, they have a hard time like um trying to like blend in with the other crowds or different groups on campus.
[00:59:38] Randall Roth: Okay, you know, actually that has only happened in the past 20 years during the renaissance of Hawaiian um culture. Before that, being Hawaiian wasn't very fashionable. Um people didn't want to be Hawaiian, they wanted to be American, and uh only now has it been, you know, revised that being Hawaiian is something important to people. And I just propose a a comment to everybody, but I don't know about any other place in the world where we could tease each other as much as we do here about our cultural background, and still get along, and if anybody don't like to make a comment about that.
[01:00:09] Student: How do you pronounce your name, is it Kaimi?
[01:00:12] Randall Roth: Kaimi.
[01:00:13] Student: Kaimi. Yeah.
[01:00:14] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I want to know when you're going to run for governor. I'd like to be in on that campaign. Peter Manicus, let me comment quickly. I think he's put his finger on it. A very critical point. I mean, there's a sense in which the Hawaiian Renaissance that began in the 60s is again part of an enormously emancipatory thing, which is now causing a lot of people problems and it shouldn't. I mean, what's stunning is exactly his point, right? I mean, for a very long time, people were embarrassed to be Hawaiians, and then they reinvent themselves and they reinvent their culture, and they say to themselves, look, I mean, we're okay.
[01:00:47] Randall Roth: And then people begin to say, yeah, they're okay. And then at a certain point they begin to get worried. Why should they be worried? My goodness sakes. I mean, the the whole idea here is one that that will help us all. We've heard some very interesting things from the audience and what I want to do is give uh each of the the guests an opportunity to to say in just a minute or less, anything that needs to be said or respond to something that needs to be responded to. We just heard from Peter Manicus, a professor uh of Liberal Studies at University of Hawaii Manoa. Now Jim Me and attorney with Ashford and Wriston.
[01:01:21] Student: Well, I think Kaimi made another very good point, which is we still have the ability here to look at things with a sense of humor, and and to treat each other that way. In other words that we don't get so serious. There's so many places in the world where people start talking about serious things and pretty soon they're yelling and screaming at each other. And I know things, we have problems here, but I still think we've got some advantages that we don't let the the tough parts get to us.
[01:01:50] Randall Roth: Daviana McGregor.
[01:01:52] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: Well, um in our Hawaiian sovereignty movement, we always kind of listen to the fact that it's going to be your generation that um is going to carry the the or design um uh really what sovereignty will look like. Because um 75% of our Hawaiian people are under the age of 35. So certainly it is your future.
[01:02:14] Davianna Pōmaikaʻi McGregor: I think what we're what we're the challenges is is to look at balance, or what we call lokahi, um what we've been talking about is the distortion of economy over the years where we we're dependent on one or another economy, or it could be in the future a distortion in terms of one culture, uh especially the American culture, becoming more dominant and forcing us to give up our own cultural values um to to assimilate. And so I think the key is um looking at our resources, integrating uh the the most efficient and best use of our resources and um um having a sense of balance in in everything that we do.
[01:02:53] Randall Roth: That was Daviana McGregor, uh professor of Ethnic Studies at the University of Hawaii. Uh last but not least of our four guests to sum up his thoughts, John Okamura, who's with Student Equity Excellence and Diversity Office at the University of Hawaii.
[01:03:07] Jonathan Okamura: Well, I've been uh very encouraged by some of the questions that uh the young people have raised, to particular questions concerning the economy and the nature of the economy because um this has much to do with your future, whether or not you're going to stay here, whether or not you're going to come back. For example, if you go to where to school on the mainland. And uh these are tough questions, but uh they've been raised uh over the past 20 years. I think uh the problem that we've been facing is that our politicians, our leaders, our government leaders not been responding to the same kinds of questions you've been asking.
[01:03:36] Jonathan Okamura: What's the future of Hawaii? Am I going to end up working in a Waikiki hotel? Even though I might be working as an accountant or as a as an executive, nonetheless, I'm vulnerable to whatever goes on in the global economy, whether it happens in California or in Japan. And that's a not the sort of future that I think young people want to plan on if they want to stay here.
[01:04:00] Randall Roth: Well, without, we have to uh wrap this up. Our guests this morning have been John Okamura, Daviana McGregor, Jim Me and Peter Manicus, but the stars of this conversation, I think everyone would agree, has been our audience, which is made up of high school juniors and seniors from Kaiser, Punahou, Kamehameha and McKinley. I want to thank all of you. Our topic today was are we getting along and if the people in this room are any indication, I feel pretty good about how well people in Hawaii are getting along. Next week, we're going to be hearing from James Scott, who's the president of Punahou School.
[01:04:34] Randall Roth: He's going to be sharing his thoughts about education in general and education in Hawaii in particular. The producer of the Price of Paradise radio show is Suzy Roth, the director of operations is Jeff Alardi. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.