Political Corruption
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-11-01
Guests: Richard Matsuura (State Senator; chairman, Senate special investigative committee); Bob Rees (UH instructor, business and American Studies)
Duration: 0:28:11

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: And to the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is political reform and retaliation in Hawaii. With me to discuss these and related matters are Bob Reese, an instructor of business and American studies at the University of Hawaii, who also is producer host of Home Team Five's Island Issues program, and Richard Matsuura, a state senator from Hilo, whose special committee has been investigating allegations of government misconduct.
[00:00:26] Richard Matsuura: Dicks Dick, Bob wrote a chapter for The Price of Paradise volume two, where he was talking about our legislature. In that chapter, he said it's, quote, comically and painfully clear that something is wrong.
[00:00:41] Randall Roth: Is there something wrong with our legislature, Dick?
[00:00:43] Richard Matsuura: Hey, I I the public perception is absolutely correct. I think that there is confusion, there's mistrust, and I think uh and and I think the public is right to, you know, have these kind of feelings. Because when you see, you know, the president, uh you know, being changed, you have the committee chairman such as Ways and Means, being changed. The public has the right to know, why are they changing all of these things?
[00:01:10] Randall Roth: Well, and it seems as though they change them, and then they change them again, and you wait to see if they're going to change them yet again.
[00:01:16] Richard Matsuura: And the reason is that they want total control, and when you have total control, you're asking for trouble.
[00:01:23] Randall Roth: What do you mean, they? Who's they? We talking about this council of elders?
[00:01:28] Richard Matsuura: I think, uh the control usually, you know, stems from the administration. They would like to control in terms of the House, the Senate, and especially the Money Committees, the Committee on Finance, and the Committee on Ways and Means, because that's where the action is.
[00:02:01] Bob Rees: Bob, what's your read on what's going on, especially what's going on in the Senate right now?
[00:02:05] Bob Rees: Well, I I I share the Senator's view uh and you ask who uh who they might be. I I attribute it to there's what I would call an oligarchy uh that now controls uh Hawaii. It's a democratic oligarchy uh it's dominated by wealth, by some people behind the scenes whom you never see, but it's a handful of a very few people who are who are I think uh and tell me what you think, Senator, uh pulling the strings on our legislature. I think this latest Senate move with retaliation aimed, for example, at people like Senator Matsuura, uh was was a concept, conceived by and executed by this oligarchy or machine that it works behind the scenes that wanted to take retribution for anyone who would dare disagree with the with the machine.
[00:02:52] Randall Roth: Now, Dick, you mentioned that the administration is behind a lot of this. Is the machine different than the administration?
[00:02:58] Richard Matsuura: Well, I think it somewhat overlaps. Now the problem on this thing, take a good example of Senator Ann Kobayashi, you know, she was the Chairman of Ways and Means, and I can assure the public that it's because of people like Senator Ann Kobayashi and Senator Momoro Yamasaki, who, you know, who chaired the, you know, Ways and Means committee. They are the ones that supported me and my committee in doing all of this investigation. It was their effort that got us started and and you know and why we were able to get a lot of the documents and all that. It's they're the spearhead. Now you going to punish them, because they push for a very strong, you know, uh procurement bill, that they didn't back off, they didn't you know I mean, they stuck to the ground, so that the state will have a good procurement law, and now you going to punish them.
[00:03:55] Randall Roth: But I thought Governor Ariyoshi wanted procurement reform. That's what the newspaper said.
[00:04:01] Richard Matsuura: Well, that was not really what was happening in when we were negotiating.
[00:04:07] Bob Rees: What what the the what the governor was trying for, I think, Randy, was not procurement reform, so much as ostensible procurement reform.
[00:04:14] Randall Roth: What do you mean by that?
[00:04:15] Bob Rees: Well, a very mild uh new law that would have allowed it allowed him, had he been able to get it through in the regular session and then the special session, had he got that through, uh his his his his idea was then to get rid of Senator Matsuura's committee investigating procurement. So what he wanted was a law that that was not as strict as what the Senator and Ann Kobayashi wanted. Senator Kobayashi has told me that the first thing they said to her when they removed her from Ways and Means was that we're doing this because of what you did to us on procurement. It was a direct retaliation.
[00:04:48] Randall Roth: So this is is retaliation. Dick, you agree with that? That's your read?
[00:04:52] Richard Matsuura: Well, I yeah, that's how I read in terms of Kobayashi, and you know, and I'm not I'm in lots of Ways and Means also, you know. So, you know, sometimes you wonder, you know, the people who really want reform, who wants government for the people. For some reason, you know, it seem like these are the kind of people that will get get punished.
[00:05:16] Randall Roth: Yeah. Matt Matt Matsunaga, his committee, there was an attempt to to strip it of some very important functions. Is that related to what we're talking about now?
[00:05:24] Richard Matsuura: Yes, and in Matt Matsunaga's case, like here you have a jewel of an legislator, he was moving too strongly to initiate competition in telecommunication in the state of Hawaii. The state of Hawaii has a total monopoly and he wanted competition, he wanted others so that we can keep up with the other states. And I think they wanted to give him a signal, go easy. We taking it away, but then there was enough outcry from the public, so they have to get it back to him. Thanks to the public.
[00:05:53] Randall Roth: But it it takes a majority of people in the Senate in order to reorganize it. How can that many people be doing something that sounds so uh so wrong?
[00:06:03] Richard Matsuura: Well basically, you know, this so called Council of Elders, I don't know who coined the term, but you know, there were three people principal telling who's going to be what and they they didn't ask anybody.
[00:06:14] Randall Roth: According to the newspapers and tell me if this is correct, that's Norman Mitsuguishi, Milton Holt, and Randy Awasi?
[00:06:20] Richard Matsuura: Yes. These are the they were they were the three, yes.
[00:06:23] Randall Roth: So, but they've got to have the support of what? Uh 12 others at a minimum in order to uh to control things?
[00:06:29] Richard Matsuura: Yeah, they have to have 13 votes and this is where we having some problems.
[00:06:33] Randall Roth: Oh, I see. So it's not completely settled who's going to end up on top?
[00:06:36] Richard Matsuura: Well, I think the even the presidency is not settled yet because Senator Key is correct. Yeah, I mean, he's still the president.
[00:06:44] Randall Roth: So you know, we have you know, we have total confusion uh, you know, at the Senate right now. What are the sorts of things that uh people like like the so-called Council of Elders, what are the the ways that they can get leverage on others? How do they try to get the support of other senators?
[00:06:59] Richard Matsuura: I think what they can do is to offer them, you know, whatever committees that they want, or you know, a good example is uh I think they they try to win uh Senator Mike McCartney. He didn't ask to be on the Ways and Means committee, but he was put on the Ways and Means committee. He didn't even ask for it.
[00:07:18] Randall Roth: Kind of a carrot uh you know That's right. You try to win him. What about the last time you were on the show, you talked about uh a thing called the High Three, that somehow uh the chance that a legislator could be appointed to a high paying government job was an inappropriate way that the administration has of influencing people. Is that related to this?
[00:07:36] Richard Matsuura: Absolutely. I mean, the people if there's anything that the people should object, rightly have to is the so-called High Three, where legislators get appointed to a high paying job and their pension increases as much as three times what they would normally get. Three times, 300%. This, I'm telling you, is legalized bribery.
[00:08:00] Randall Roth: You agree with that, Bob?
[00:08:01] Bob Rees: Well, yes, I I do. I mean, it's it's it's certainly at a minimum, very tempting for some people in the legislature when when offered a chance to get a much higher paying post towards the end of their careers to do almost anything in order to get that because of the way their pension is calculated, which is based on their their high three years.
[00:08:18] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are State Senator Richard Matsuura and political commentator Bob Reese. Bob, are people in Hawaii generally, now we're talking about people outside the legislature, are they hesitant to criticize government in Hawaii?
[00:08:34] Bob Rees: Well, I I I think very very much so, Randy, and you've observed this and in putting together the book Price of Paradise as as you talk to some potential authors, you, I know, have sometimes been told by authors that, gee, I'd rather not get into it, or I have too much to lose, or I'm a little bit afraid to speak out in the community, it might hurt my job. And that goes on a a great deal. Uh since since I've been writing so much, I I've received a number of calls from people who said, gee, this is what happened to me, or this is what happened to my friend, or people have been told not to not to criticize. So, yeah, it does go on a lot. I I think uh unfortunately the the government in the in Hawaii has evolved toward one that that inspires fear in the people, that that people quite literally today are afraid of the government as opposed to respecting it.
[00:09:22] Randall Roth: Dick, do you agree with that?
[00:09:24] Richard Matsuura: Absolutely. I mean, I've never seen a a time in in in in, you know, in the history of Hawaii where people were so afraid. I get an average of about two or three anonymous calls. They're afraid to identify themselves. And you know, and and and you know what the why the reason they don't want to identify themselves. They're afraid.
[00:09:48] Randall Roth: What are they afraid of?
[00:09:50] Richard Matsuura: Retaliation.
[00:09:51] Randall Roth: Can you give me a specific example, how how would somebody retaliate against them? And who would retaliate?
[00:09:57] Richard Matsuura: Let's assume that somebody knew something about a contract, and he leads me to, you know, a uh or let's take a a good example, a real true one. I learned of a contract that was being let out, that had a lot of gray areas. So, you know, you know, if I had called the you know, the contractor, the state, you know, the agency that was giving out the contract and I thought, wait a minute now. Such and such, you know, person called me and told me that you guys are doing this, you know. Now, that person, whoever blew the whistle, would not get other contracts. I mean, he would be blackballed.
[00:10:38] Randall Roth: So when you say it has gray areas, you're saying it smells to high heaven.
[00:10:41] Richard Matsuura: That is correct. I see.
[00:10:42] Bob Rees: Randy, the the the government in in Hawaii is so widespread. I mean, it has tentacles. It's it it it has become almost the octopus of Frank Norris. I mean, it's just it's just everywhere, uh and people are very concerned about economic retaliation. And and you ask for a specific example, and I will give you one. A few years ago, Dbed uh hired a company called CH2M Hill here in Honolulu to do some environmental work and studies on the economic feasibility of a spaceport. The CH2M Hill study cost $650,000. The only problem with it was is it didn't come out as favorable as as Dbed had hoped. They had become advocates of the spaceport. So what they did was to bury it. Uh they they they lied flat out about it for a couple years, said it doesn't exist. Then they when they had to acknowledge that it did exist, they begin to say, well, it's old and it was based on different premises. The interesting part is when you call CH2M Hill for a comment, their reaction is one of absolute fear. Uh, we want to stay out of it, please don't quote us, uh don't mention us, etc, etc, etc. And they're operating out of out of fear of economic retaliation because they know there will come a point when they might have to get some more work for the from the state and the state will take retaliation.
[00:12:01] Richard Matsuura: Let me let me follow up on that. You know, take my case for an example. You know, some months back when I was doing all this investigation, there was a person, you know, anonymous again. He says, Dick, you know, you know they're going to get you, you know, and I said, yes, I know because I pressed the economic button and it lit up the whole state. So I told him, I know they're going to get me. But you see, take a look at me today. They did get me. I didn't think that they were going to get me this soon, but you know, I
[00:13:08] Randall Roth: They they've cut you off at the ankles. Uh you're no longer uh majority head, you're no longer chair of a committee, you're no longer on Ways and Means. Ways and Means, yeah.
[00:13:17] Richard Matsuura: They've they've pulled everything out from under you. Yeah, but you don't see me, you know, tears in my eyes. You see me still smiling even though I have six hours in my back because my time will still come.
[00:13:26] Randall Roth: Dick, you've been around uh Hawaii politics a long time and yet I think you said just a little bit ago, it's never been this bad. Why is it this bad? Why is it so many people fear retaliation today as compared to whenever in the past?
[00:13:37] Richard Matsuura: I think they're afraid because there is a sense of total control today. Before, you know, when Governor Ariyoshi was Governor, you know, Governor Ariyoshi never had the Senate under his control. I mean, you know, I used to be in Caucus with the governor would come to into our caucus and he would be bang from all different directions. You know. People would criticize him.
[00:14:14] Randall Roth: Absolutely. Not only criticism, attack. They don't now?
[00:14:17] Richard Matsuura: I haven't seen them.
[00:14:21] Randall Roth: Bob, why?
[00:14:24] Bob Rees: Well, it a couple of of reasons. One of, of course is that we've had one party in power since since 1954, basically in power since 1954 and we've gone through the inevitable process of of power corrupting.
[00:15:00] Bob Rees: The other reason is related to it and that is as this power has corrupted, I think we've seen a a tremendous increase in in what you would term the arbitrary use of power. That is people have realized now that there there are no rules or laws to which they can turn, that the state has tremendous economic power, that that people can take retaliation. Uh some of the things the Attorney General has done recently, I think strike fear into people's hearts because they appear to be so arbitrary. I e I will not prosecute Ken Kiyabu because gee, it's an old outdated law, uh no one showed me that Mark Oda was done anything. Oh, uh Dr. Okamura's testimony to Senator Matsuura's committee, well gee, maybe we'll look into it, but we haven't gotten any reports. This was the testimony where he said he was threatened with economic retaliation by a Takamoto. So it it appears to people to be almost a an an arbitrary kind of system where anyone highly connected or well connected with government, part of the oligarchy can do just about anything they want to do.
[00:15:21] Randall Roth: Dick, is that uh anywhere near the way you see it?
[00:15:33] Richard Matsuura: Well, I mean, that's scary, that's a scary picture that Bob has just painted. Well, I think that what is happening, you know, when I look at for instance, the make up of the the the the organization in the Senate today, now, it is true, they have removed, you know, a good chairman. I mean, Senator Ann Kobayashi did a a tremendous job as Chairman. Oh, and procurement, I mean. On wonderful job. And I can tell you you know, everybody was happy. But I don't think she well, not evidently not everybody. Well, well, Administration. Administration man, you know, but but but she was she couldn't be controlled. I think that was the problem. She couldn't be controlled.
[00:16:51] Richard Matsuura: And she had gone public and she said, I ain't going to give no money extra money to the renovation of the Capitol, stadium, you know, she went right down the list and she said the Convention Center, you spend one penny over the $350 million, it ain't going to happen.
[00:17:15] Randall Roth: And so she's out on the street, so far as ways and means is concerned.
[00:17:19] Richard Matsuura: Well, yeah, because she took these kind of stance, because this is what's happening in the state. They start a project, they put a budget, we appropriate the money. 80% of the thing is done, then they say, they ran out of money. Now they come back again, and that's the name of the game, the contracts, they go, and then they run out of money so they get amended, you know, and mend it, amend it, you know, that, and that's the problem that the state have faced.
[00:18:03] Randall Roth: Speaking of of these contracts, I think there's at least a perception in the community. I I hope the reality is different, but there is a clear-cut perception that those companies that are making political contributions somehow have an advantage in or have had an advantage in the procurement process. Would you agree, Dick, that that's the perception at least?
[00:18:41] Richard Matsuura: Yes. Absolutely. Is that Is that or has that been the reality? If I was a betting man, I would bet on it.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Bob, what do you think?
[00:19:00] Bob Rees: Well, you know, you you you you sounded a little incredulous uh when when I said that the government has become more arbitrary than ever.
[00:19:00] Bob Rees: Look at back up for for a second. Look at uh Office of State Planning in the Governor's office. Harold Masumoto suddenly announces, okay, I'm not going to approve the Center for Hawaiian Studies. No reason, just kind of kind of an arbitrary exercise. Uh Russell Nagata tries to shield Dolly Ching, hyde delete her name from an official report so that she won't get some bad publicity about supplying credit cards to legislators. His punishment, he's given a judgeship. Who's on the judicial selection committee, Dolly Ching. On and on and on, uh Randy, I mean it's it's I don't think stretching a point to to to say that it has become more arbitrary and part of that arbitrary attitude of of the government is I think, yes, uh you're much more apt to get ahead in Hawaii if you contribute heavily to causes and you're you're going to be rewarded if if you support the Democratic machine. If you dissent, uh you could be in trouble, if you dissent vehemently enough.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are State Senator Richard Matsuura and political commentator Bob Reese. Dick, getting back to your special investigation committee, um that's about to wrap up its work I believe.
[00:19:00] Richard Matsuura: Yes.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Is there going to be a written report?
[00:19:00] Richard Matsuura: There will be a written report.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Can you tell us at least generally what sorts of things we might be able to expect in the report? For example, is it going to recommend anything in particular?
[00:19:00] Richard Matsuura: Yes, we will be recommending if, you know, uh prosecution is in order or something, we will be making that recommendation to the Attorney General.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Are you about to wrap things up because you're you're finished with what you wanted to do, or are you running out of money, or are there other reasons why you're shutting down now?
[00:19:00] Richard Matsuura: We are running out of money.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Who controls that?
[00:19:00] Richard Matsuura: Uh, the Senate President.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: And that's The new president?
[00:19:01] Richard Matsuura: Yeah, and I think that no, but the legislature in itself, you know, and the Senate President can, you know, help. But, uh, you know, because they did put the amount in in the resolution, uh, I'm bound by it. So I can't spend anything more than the, uh, $200,000, and but I have to go back to the Senate body to have it increased.
[00:19:23] Randall Roth: So, um, you've not only been gotten individually, but it sounds like your committee has more or less, um, had the rug pulled out from under it.
[00:19:32] Richard Matsuura: Well, when they, you know, amended the resolution, you know, I objected to it, but you know, it passed and, uh, I'm abiding by whatever is the language of the resolution. I'm sure there's a lot more, you know, to to to look at. I mean, why is it that certain lawyers get all the job, you know, in terms of, you know, as a bond council? Or why is it that people go to only certain lawyers to get zoning permit? You know, why do large developers, you know, hire such and such firm? You know, and
[00:20:03] Randall Roth: And you would go into that if if your committee had the funding.
[00:20:06] Richard Matsuura: Absolutely.
[00:20:08] Randall Roth: Bob, what do you think the impact of of Dick's committee has been here in Hawaii? Are you are do you feel as though it's made a difference or or not?
[00:20:18] Richard Matsuura: Oh, no. I I I think very much so that it's made a substantial difference in that it it I think it has offered not just hearsay talk, uh, but testimony and evidence of about this oligarchy and and the the the the the fear that it can attempts to inspire in people. I think I think back to the testimony of Dr. Norman Okamura, where where he he swore under oath that Takamoto had threatened him. He said, I'm going to push all the economic buttons, you'll be pushed, and you'll be punished, uh, Dr. Okamura, if you if you uh attempt to talk to the press or to any committees and and inspire investigations. So there was a direct piece of retaliation that I I think it it was good that it became public. And and some of the other testimony that that's occurred on on GTE Hawaiian Tell, and the the resistance to competition, and the awarding of of of contracts, almost as what strikes me as arbitrary, almost as a personal favor. I think it's done Hawaii a lot of good, and I mean the first step is really for us to to learn about ourselves and what's going on.
[00:21:10] Randall Roth: Yeah, and right, let me clarify the previous question you asked me, because I don't want the public to understand, you know, to feel that, you know, I'm, you know, going to move into that, or, you know, had I have the money. The reason why I answered the question, you know, like I did, is because you know, of all the anonymous calls that I do get, most of them are centered around that area. And then, you know, and in although the FBI has been looking into this, you know, the allegations and all that, you know, I don't want to interfere with their activities or whatever, but it's amazing the number of anonymous phone calls have been in that direction.
[00:21:57] Randall Roth: In that direction, meaning the lawyers that uh that got the work, um
[00:22:01] Richard Matsuura: Well, looking at in terms of land use.
[00:22:04] Randall Roth: Land use, I see. Um, Dick, if if you had it within your power uh to change something here in Hawaii. Uh, I know I asked you the same question on the last show and and you talked about that high three. You feel that that's uh an insidious uh factor in in the decisions that the the people in the legislature make. Other than that, what would you change? Something here in Hawaii.
[00:22:29] Richard Matsuura: It's okay to dream, you don't have to be practical. Well, you know, what the state, what the people of Hawaii really needs is need is uh, is a dream. I mean, that's what's lacking. Now, you know, I I I'll be honest with you. I, you know, I'm working with, you know, Dofood, Mr. David Murdoch, you know, I mean, he's excited about is the establishment of uh Matsunaga International Peace Institute on Lanai. Now, that is something that you can bring the world's brains, the guys that just retired from major corporation from all over the world, China, Japan, you name it, bring them there, you get the young talent, young people from all over the world, make them live together, play together, you know, you know, socialize together, live together, and get trained by this brain pool that we have the recently retired, you know, CEOs.
[00:23:29] Randall Roth: Is there anyone here in Hawaii who would fight that? I mean, it sounds something very desirable.
[00:23:34] Richard Matsuura: That is correct. So, now, you know, in my contact with people from China, you Korea, Japan, let's do it. You know, they're telling, let's just, you know, and then, you know, so uh, that's the kind of thing that that is lacking.
[00:23:48] Randall Roth: We got to do it. We got to do it. Leadership, is that what's lacking? Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:24:01] Richard Matsuura: The the if if if it's okay to dream as you said, the the the thing that I that I think has to be changed is is somehow for all of us the the people uh to get out from underneath this kind of veil of fear and and and to realize the the potential we have. I did I did a live remote radio broadcast from the the Capitol last Friday and and there was this this tremendous public outpouring and I'm just so glad to have the chance to to express their feelings about what was going on and what was being done. And I think the the more that people realize that it's okay uh to dissent and that it's okay to stand up for your rights and just to abandon this fear that we have because it's it's the fear that permeates now the Hawaiian society society that really does at this point make us different from any of the other 50 states.
[00:24:50] Randall Roth: Dick, if if people in the community were more vocal and demanded more from people in the legislature, um, would that strike a little bit of fear into their hearts? Are they, uh, are they responsive to that sort of thing? Are they responsive to that sort of thing?
[00:25:03] Bob Rees: Absolutely. Every legislator worries about two things, getting elected and getting re-elected. That's the name of the game.
[00:25:12] Randall Roth: What, what would you say to members of the community? What can we do to make Hawaii even better than it is?
[00:25:20] Bob Rees: I think they have to express, you know, what they feel. Let the legislators know, you know how they feel. And that's the thing that, especially those of you who are in different, you know constituency. You know, call your legislator. Just tell them, look, you know, I just don't like it. You know the movie Network, the guy tell open your window and I don't know what he tell, you know tell up. And then I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. Yeah, just do that. Okay, and I might add their phone numbers are in the phone book.
[00:25:50] Randall Roth: Thank you very much, Dick and Bob. Our guest this week were Bob Reese, an instructor of Business and American Studies at the University of Hawaii, and producer host of Home Five's Island Issues program and Senator Richard Mozara, head of the Special Senate Committee currently investigating allegations of government misconduct. This week's show was produced by Jill Senner with technical assistance from Rick Stanley. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[00:26:27] Richard Matsuura: This program is produced by the Consortium of Price of Paradise authors in cooperation with Hawaii Public Radio. The Price of Paradise is a best-selling book that has become a must read for every concerned citizen of Hawaii. A sequel, Price of Paradise volume two, has quickly become another bestseller after recently arriving in O'ahu bookstores. Please tune in next week when Randall Roth, a special guest and one of the 65 co-authors from the two Price of Paradise books will take on another question of importance to listeners in Hawaii. Cassette copies of this program are available from Hawaii Public Radio for $10 by calling 955-8821.