Should Tax Money Fund the Arts?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-10-19
Guests: George R. Ellis (Director of the Honolulu Academy of Arts); Ken Schoolland (professor of economics and political science, Hawaii Pacific University; former chairman of the Hawaii Libertarian Party)
Duration: 01:00:40

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: morning on KIFOS, starting at 8:00 AM on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning is government funding of the arts, and with me in the studio are George Ellis, the director and president of the Honolulu Academy of Arts, and Ken Schoolland, a professor of economics and political science at Hawaii Pacific University. Joining us by phone will be Marcia Morris, a professor of art at Honolulu Community College and herself an artist and art critic.

[00:00:39] Randall Roth: And also Bob McWilliams, a full-time studio potter who previously taught school in Chicago. Well, to my four guests, good morning. Our topic this morning is government funding of the arts. And if listeners out there have had an opportunity to see page B4 of the Honolulu or the Honolulu advertiser, we've got a headline that says, should some tax money fund the arts? George Ellis, director, president of Honolulu Academy of Arts, I get the feeling that you think the answer's pretty easy.

[00:01:12] George R. Ellis: Yeah, it's it's a slam dunk, Randy. That's no question about it. I I just can't imagine a life without the arts, and the arts must have some government support to survive. They contribute to our quality of life, they foster civic pride and participation, they stimulate the economy and attract tourists, they revitalize neighborhoods, address social problems, provide educational opportunities for our children, which are essential to their future. The arts in fact are essential to life in a democratic society, they are a necessity, not an amenity.

[00:01:42] Randall Roth: Okay, now I don't think anybody's going to argue against the arts this morning, but there might be some arguments against government support of the arts. Focus for a minute on why government needs or should be supporting the arts.

[00:01:54] George R. Ellis: Sure, the the government can't support the arts entirely. It's going to depend on a partnership between the private and the public sector. The government acts as a pump primer in essence. The amount of money that the government is actually supplying to the arts is very, very small. At the at the federal level, it's 24 cents per person. At the state level, it's not a whole lot more than that. It's it's minute, but it's essential. It puts a stamp of approval on the arts. It sets the arts in the same agenda as public health, as public service of one kind or another.

[00:02:26] George R. Ellis: It in essence says the arts are a part of your life and the government wants to help you to help everyone to make it a part of their life.

[00:02:36] Randall Roth: So it it the it's a priming of the pump, there's a a concern that it it wouldn't happen on its own, but government can just kind of give it a little nudge, 24 cents a year per person or something like that, and that makes a big difference.

[00:02:48] George R. Ellis: Yes, it does. Major.

[00:02:50] Randall Roth: Ken Schoolland, uh professor of political science and economic at Hawaii Pacific University, from your article on page B4 of the Honolulu Advertiser, I get the impression that you don't agree with George Ellis.

[00:03:02] Ken Schoolland: Well, I agree with George Ellis that uh art is very valuable and important in people's lives. Uh but I I have a fundamental disagreement with uh two groups in society, one group that wants to censor art and another group that wants to come uh compel people to fund uh art. Um I advocate a complete separation of art and state because I believe that it brings about a greater personal uh freedom of expression for all the citizenry and more social harmony because people aren't going to be fighting over how these funds are going to be spent. And I believe it ultimately leads to better art.

[00:03:32] Ken Schoolland: Now art is very important, and I agree with George about that, and it is deeply personal to many people just like religion. And just as we expect to be able to choose our own church or no church, we should also be free to uh of compulsion in funding someone else's church. So I I have no objection at all to the arts, I just believe that um it should be uh voluntarily funded. And if I George feels that uh we ought to have a certain kind of art that he favors, uh if it's only 24 cents a per person, then it should be very easy to persuade people to do that.

[00:04:02] Ken Schoolland: As a matter of fact, there is a a very large amount of art that goes on in in society, as much as 340 billion dollars a year spent in arts, recreation, and entertainment. And a very large amount is even donated uh uh gratis, much much more than the government uh funds. I believe that it's uh not likely that the arts would uh would die without the funding from the government, but it's a very fundamental principle that people shouldn't have to be forced to to fund other people's ideas of art.

[00:04:38] Randall Roth: In in your article in this morning's paper, it's actually a conversation between Kimo and and Rob, and I guess Rob stands for Robber because what I'm hearing is that you see compulsion as the bad thing at the core of government support of the arts.

[00:04:54] Ken Schoolland: Sure, and I I would guess that uh that George wouldn't go over to your house and forcibly take money to uh from you to to go and buy some art for your room.

[00:05:04] George R. Ellis: Well, it depends it depends on what the fund drive is at the moment.

[00:05:07] Randall Roth: I've known George a long time and he he might do that, Ken. But uh but you're saying people shouldn't compel others to support the first person's notion of what art is all about and you see government support of the arts where where my tax dollars and I don't have a choice to pay or not pay taxes, my tax dollars are being used to to buy somebody else's art.

[00:05:27] Ken Schoolland: That's right, because I believe that with your tax money, I mean, with the money that you have earned, uh you're very likely to spend it in the ways that uh you value the most. And when someone else is spending your money, they're not as likely to to be able to to spend it in ways that you really value. Uh you're more likely to be able to spend your own money that way.

[00:05:43] Randall Roth: Okay, we're going to go to our guests on the phone in in just a moment, but George Ellis, I think you have a comment.

[00:05:47] George R. Ellis: No, I I I was just going to, I'll comment as the the show goes on. I of course basically and well, almost totally disagree with with Ken in this um in this regard.

[00:05:56] Randall Roth: Let me ask you about a specific thing that that Ken said, because we've got we've got your article and his article, which um this show, Susie and I have a little bit of of control over um uh what we submit to the newspaper, but the cartoon is something that just surprises us each Sunday morning. And the cartoon seems to, in its own way, make a point that I hear Ken making that when government gets involved, art's not going to be as good as it otherwise can be. Do you have a a reaction to that, George?

[00:06:24] George R. Ellis: Yeah, I certainly do. I don't agree with that. Um, there have been at the at the federal level over 100,000 grants made uh during the tenure of the National uh Endowment for the Arts. About four or five of those, Ken alludes in his article to pornography, he alludes to uh various things that The guy that eats the bus over a five year period, did that really happen? Um, I don't know, quite frankly, but but if it did, it's a part of the process. Out of 120,000 grants, only five have been controversial in any way during the tenure of the of the Endowment.

[00:06:56] George R. Ellis: And in fact, one of those that became very controversial wasn't even funded by the NEA. So the NEA has um has been attacked and in a very unfair way.

[00:07:05] Randall Roth: So it's not really not really controversial, but it's good art nonetheless.

[00:07:09] George R. Ellis: It certainly is, and it's all chosen if we're talking about really two things. Number one, art bought and then programs provided. So, uh you know, we really ought to, you know, keep those separate as this conversation goes forward. But it's mainstream um America. There are some outrageous that happened, things that happen in uh this society and occasionally they happen in the grant-making process, but they're uh minor circumstance.

[00:07:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go first on the phone to Bob McWilliams. Bob is a full-time studio potter, previously taught school in Chicago. Bob, can you hear me this morning?

[00:07:40] Bob McWilliams: Yes, good morning.

[00:07:42] Randall Roth: Uh you are a a full-time artist, uh and I'm under the impression that you don't think government should be supporting the arts. Is is that correct?

[00:07:52] Bob McWilliams: Yes, that's true. I I've been a studio potter here in Hawaii for almost 21 years now and uh I haven't really ever taken any government money for my pieces or for workshops or anything like that.

[00:08:04] Randall Roth: Why why would an artist not be in support of government support of the arts?

[00:08:09] Bob McWilliams: Uh well, there's a number of reasons that I believe, uh I I believe shouldn't be artists shouldn't be um in favor of government support of the arts. Uh, there are uh the State Foundation and culture of the arts is actually a very small circle of artists uh that tend to um tend to get acquisition purchases and grants for larger projects. Um, that's one reason. There's also the question of indiscriminant buying by the acquisition committee of the State Foundation in the Arts.

[00:08:46] Bob McWilliams: Uh, I believe they they really go out to a very small portion of exhibits and galleries in the state to purchase art and that uh it kind of creates a a circle which uh which is hard for the state foundation to get out of. It doesn't really serve the whole community, it really serves a real small click.

[00:09:07] Randall Roth: This sounds like the art world's equivalent of what sometimes is called the old boys network in politics.

[00:09:13] Bob McWilliams: Uh a little bit, yeah, yeah. There's uh certain guidelines that the state foundation uh has for visiting galleries and exhibits and they're very, very narrow and they tend to uh uh only go to certain places almost all the time. Uh I think they're far eliminating a lot of other folks that are out there. Uh even if there were a lot of other artists that were in favor of having their work bought.

[00:09:40] Randall Roth: Okay, if it were done better, if the guidelines weren't narrow, if the circle wasn't small, would you support government uh support of the arts?

[00:09:49] Bob McWilliams: Well, in the real basic sense, I have uh feelings pretty much along the lines of Ken Schoolland, that uh it's still government, it's still taxpayer's money that's out there buying art or purchasing art. And uh even though I disagree with the acquisition guidelines and things like that, um that's the bottom line, that's really the bottom line, they're using tax money. Although in support of the artists, uh it does help support some of the artists. Uh although it's uh again, like I said, a very narrow group that tends to benefit from these.

[00:10:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob, can you stay on the line for a while?

[00:10:28] Bob McWilliams: Sure.

[00:10:29] Randall Roth: Great. Uh, our fourth guest this morning is Marcia Morris, a professor of art at Honolulu Community College, herself an artist and art critic uh critic. Marcia, you're there.

[00:10:39] Marcia Morris: Yes, I am. Good morning.

[00:10:41] Randall Roth: Uh, good morning. What do you have to add to our conversation?

[00:10:44] Marcia Morris: Well, a couple of things. I'm glad that the debate is not about the value of the arts per se, but about how to support them. And I think there are a couple of ways to think about this that I think support George Ellis's position. I think if one is concerned about elitism, you should understand that the process of allocating public money for the arts is one which strives for quality while also being accessible and accountable. It is in fact very mainstream. I think of it in other words as a practice of cultural ecology, if you will, maintaining diversity and critical mass.

[00:11:12] Marcia Morris: I think there's another point that I'd like to make initially, and that is if there's concern about where the money goes, consider that the distribution is really totally across the board, national, state, and local. Uh and individuals and small and large institutions benefit. There's a strong initiative for education in and through the arts as well. I think that in this context, we need to think about the arts as an essential part of infrastructure.

[00:11:37] Randall Roth: Marcia, let let me ask you, you mentioned a term cultural ecology and you said it had something to do with achieving diversity and critical mass, and I'm wondering just what does that mean in a in a a little more tangible way?

[00:11:49] Marcia Morris: Sure, I I think that uh as for the diversity issue, uh we really want to get out of the mindset that those who are receiving public tax dollars are a small and and elite group, or that some elite standard of art or aesthetics is is being um cultivated here. I think the records shows that that's simply not true. Uh, I think that with regard to critical mass, uh perhaps this echoes something that that George mentioned initially, which is that the arts do need some assistance along with other sectors of of private and public life. Um, and it's not a matter of uh total subsidy or perpetual subsidy.

[00:12:30] Marcia Morris: I think I think the the um metaphor of pump priming is is really quite apropos here, and that if you give somebody a platform to achieve critical mass, you you allow them to sustain viability at that point.

[00:12:43] Randall Roth: I think what I'm hearing is that that government supports support of the art is is something that that is tied into mainstream art, but at the same time it's promoting diversity. Are are those consistent or How can you do both?

[00:12:57] Marcia Morris: I I think I think it it goes really to how we define ourselves in terms of a national culture. Um, I think that we've built our tradition and our sense of national character on diversity. You know, that's a very problematic issue, but I think that it still is something that we espouse, uh certainly in terms of uh public rhetoric as well as I think private sentiment. And I think diversity cuts lots of different ways.

[00:13:26] Randall Roth: Okay. I hope that answers your question. Sure. Um, you're going to stay on the phone for a while?

[00:13:29] Marcia Morris: Certainly.

[00:13:30] Randall Roth: Wonderful. We'll come back to you in just a bit. Uh, before we tell people who tuned in late just what they're listening to, Ken Schoolland, I know you've got a couple comments based on what Marcia just said, and then George Ellis, I think wanted to comment on what Bob McWilliams was saying.

[00:13:43] Ken Schoolland: Ken Schoolland. Uh yes, um with regard to elitism, I would uh uh call everyone's attention to the report that just came out this week from the National Endowment for the Arts. That said um that too often arts institutions are elitist, racially segregated, class-based and isolated from the communities that they claim to serve but don't. Now, uh that was from a large number of meetings among 150 participants in six cities that they came to this conclusion. Now I'm not claiming that this is necessarily true, um but people have a right to make that decision if they want to.

[00:14:20] Ken Schoolland: Um, perhaps they are uh the distribution is totally across the board, but I would guess the best way to really get that is to let people have their own money to spend it as they choose. That's how it is across the board. And um I I don't particularly uh argue for any one of these particular reasons against funding the arts. I believe that in a free society, people have a right to choose their own reason or even to have no reason. It's their money, not there, not the uh not the uh it doesn't belong to the arts institutions here, I mean the the government funded ones.

[00:14:53] Ken Schoolland: Uh, a lot of people say that uh that government institutions are elitist, some say that the artists become disconnected from their audience, uh the public becomes cynical because of some of the things that they see or hear about. Uh, it tends to favor one profession as superior to other professions in society. It adds an extra tax burden, and it's often used as a political tool, but fundamentally to me, it's it's unethical to force people to pay for something that that you could just as easily persuade them to voluntarily contribute to.

[00:15:20] George R. Ellis: Okay, George Ellis. Yeah, kind what what you're exposing essentially is is the views of the Libertarian Party. Um, so we're really having a political debate here regarding the basic function of government.

[00:15:31] Randall Roth: Well, in fact, Ken is the former head of the State Libertarian Party, so it it very much fits into that uh political philosophy.

[00:15:39] George R. Ellis: Um, but you know, obviously, I believe that government has another role. So, you know, we're we're kind of passing each other in in the night, I think to a certain extent. But I would like to comment on what Bob McWilliams has had uh said about the unfairness and cliques of people who are supported by the State Foundation. Number one, over 1,300 people are represented in the State Foundation collection. I don't think that's a small clique of people. Number two, out of the last 50 major commissions that have been given for site specific works by the State Foundation, 25 are artists who have never had any commission by the State Foundation.

[00:16:16] George R. Ellis: So I I don't think, Bob, you're looking at uh at the true picture, because it's not that way.

[00:16:21] Randall Roth: And and George, by the way, you uh I guess have a hand in the selection. I know you're on the committee that's selecting art for the convention center and have been very active with the State uh uh Foundation for Culture and the Arts. What about these acquisition guidelines that that Bob was describing as being uh rather narrow? Uh, what are the guidelines?

[00:16:40] George R. Ellis: Well, he's he's talking about one one type of of work that's bought. He's talking about uh the relocatable program. And there is a a committee that goes out. The guidelines are are quite clear. I can't recite them, I don't have them in front of me, but in essence, it must be a gallery that has a regular schedule of changing exhibitions. The gallery must uh, or the work in the gallery must be uh curated or judged, not just things put in.

[00:17:06] George R. Ellis: Uh, there are a whole series of things, the the gallery and the artist must be registered with the State Foundation, which is a very minor, um, you know, not a difficult thing to do, but it's a very fair uh way of of beginning to to look at at those sites uh which the committee will go to. And then the composition of the committee is quite fair as well, including commissioners from the State Foundation, artists, members of the community in general, a broad cross-section that makes those choices. It is not an unfair process.

[00:17:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, if you tuned in late, what you're listening to is the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We're here talking about government support of the arts. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, now's the time to grab your phone and dial 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. Again, our topic is government support of the arts. With me in the studio is George Ellis, who's the director and president of the Honolulu Academy of Arts. He's on the Art Selection Committee for the Convention Center.

[00:18:08] Randall Roth: He's the president of the Hawaii Museum Association, and he's the 1996 salesman of the year for his work in promoting the arts in Hawaii. Also in the studio is Ken Schoolland, who is a professor of economics and political science at Hawaii Pacific University. He has acted, directed, and even founded a theater company. He's the author of fiction and nonfiction, and in fact his books have been published in 12 languages, and he's the former chairman of the Libertarian Party here in Hawaii. With us by phone is Marcia Morris, who is a professor of art at Honolulu Community College. She is herself an artist and art critic.

[00:18:43] Randall Roth: She has degrees from Harvard and Stanford, was the art critic for the Star Bulletin for a number of years, and currently is the art critic for Honolulu Weekly. She is the recipient of a uh NEA, National Endowment for the Arts grant and an artist whose works have been purchased by the State Foundation. culture and the arts.

[00:19:01] Randall Roth: And then finally by phone we have Bob McWilliams, who's a full-time studio potter who previously taught school in Chicago. He sells his works at the Art Plantation and Global Interiors in Holivua, the following sea store in Kahala Mall and Nohea Gallery at Ward Warehouse. Again, our guests are George Ellis, Ken Sland, Marcia Morris, and Bob McWilliams. The topic is government support of the arts and the number is 9558821. We start with Roosevelt from Kahioe. Good morning, Roosevelt.

[00:19:34] Roosevelt: Good morning. How are you?

[00:19:36] Randall Roth: I'm fine. Good morning, gentlemen and lady.

[00:19:39] Roosevelt: Uh, I have to disagree with the gentleman from, um, from the Honolulu Academy of Art. Uh, when he says that government involvement in the arts is a, uh, is a validation of some sort in society. I think that, uh, when an individual such as myself, or anybody else goes to a museum to see art, that right there is the validation. Now we don't need government to validate, uh, something in order to make it, uh, to make it important to society. I think the the the importance is when that, uh, art or whatever, uh, brings a person in off the street and they put their money on the counter and they say they want to see that.

[00:20:24] Randall Roth: Roosevelt, let me get a reaction from George Ellis, then I'll come back to you.

[00:20:27] Roosevelt: Okay.

[00:20:28] George R. Ellis: George? Yeah, Roosevelt, what I what I was really talking about is is um the importance of art to to a society and a given government. Um governments throughout time and space that have invested in the arts are those that we think of and and look back on as the great civilizations of the world. For government to ignore the arts and not be involved, there's a I think a big big question about just exactly what message that sends and then secondly the result.

[00:20:58] Randall Roth: Um, Roosevelt, hang on just a second. I want to get Ken Skoolen in here and then I'll return to you.

[00:21:03] Roosevelt: Okay.

[00:21:04] Ken Schoolland: Hey, yeah, George mentioned in his article about the Parthenon and that uh Peracles um built this, built it and was criticized for uh uh producing this um at great public expense. And it's still paying dividends after all these years. I thought that was a pretty good lead.

[00:21:20] Randall Roth: Yeah, that was an interesting uh approach to it. But what I would say is that this was not built as a tourist attraction by Pericles and it wasn't built by him. It was built as a religious temple and it was built on the backs of slaves. Uh, now, what is lost in this argument all the time is the opportunity cost. What could those slaves have done with their lives if they hadn't been forced to build a temple uh for something that Pericles wanted. And it's uh hardly an argument that it was worthwhile for those slaves to expend their lives at that time so that uh a few shopkeepers can have a uh a tourist attraction uh in Greece today. Now, Greece's economy is hardly a one to brag about in Europe. It's one of the sick economies of Europe, and uh uh it can be uh uh it can't be attributed to the um um the this particular piece of art hasn't uh solved that problem for them.

[00:22:13] Randall Roth: Is it my imagination or did you just, as a metaphor, use the slaves making that as as being equivalent of the taxpayers today paying for other people's art? Is was that your suggestion? Well, uh if the shoe fits. Oh, okay. Well, Roosevelt, you get a finish this then we'll move on.

[00:22:29] Roosevelt: Okay. Uh, just one last uh comment. Um, if government doesn't uh do it, then it's not important is what I'm hearing. It it doesn't become important to the rest of us is what I'm hearing from the gentleman from the academy. And I just have to disagree. Okay. Whether government does something or not doesn't make it valuable. It's what it's what uh the people decide they want to do that gives it value.

[00:22:53] Randall Roth: Okay, you made your point very well. Roosevelt, I'm not sure George said what you suggested. He said, but you made your point very well and we've got to move on. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:23:01] Beverly: Beverly from Kalu. Good morning, Beverly.

[00:23:03] Beverly: Hi, um I'm calling to comment on what the the um head of the Academy of Arts was saying that the great cities of the world, Athens, Rome, Florence, Paris, and in London, Beijing, New York, Kyoto. Why do we want to see these cities and why are they considered great or eternal? Because they're government supported and created the great artists that created these cities. And they are more than compensated over the years for the amount that was spent. And we're still attracted by these cities because they keep creating beautiful art, drama, music, all these things that in life make life valuable. And I think this is the most uh important thing that a government can do for their society.

[00:24:10] Randall Roth: So you're strongly on the side of government support for the arts?

[00:24:14] Beverly: Uh, enlightened support. Um, I guess it depends on who's in charge.

[00:24:22] Randall Roth: Just let me run everything and things will be fine. Um, let me get a reaction first from uh Marcia Morris. Uh, Marcia, what do you think?

[00:24:31] Marcia Morris: Yeah, a couple of interesting points raised. I think uh going back to Roosevelt, if he's still um listening, um spoke about being able to go to museums to to see art. Uh well, I think he needs to consider that museums are also recipients of important support. And I think it's also important to recognize that this is a partnership. This is not the enterprise entirely of the government, and that the best um funding programs require a collaboration in fact between public dollars and private and corporate dollars. So, um, there's not, I think, this overdependency. Um, I think also I'd like to go back to something that uh Ken said earlier, and and uh I assume that he like the rest of us is a taxpayer. Uh I think we all have things that uh we're concerned about our money being used for, but I think that to to pen the argument entirely on that is really um makes it a little vulnerable.

[00:25:05] George R. Ellis: I I want to add one thing because there seems to be um uh a concept floating around that uh that maybe most people don't want to fund public art. And in fact, there have been surveys in the last few years that have indicated that over 60% of the people in the nation are in favor of public funding for the arts. And secondly, and this goes back to my 24 cents a taxpayer, uh comment. Over 50% of them are willing to spend as much as $15 a year of their tax money in support of public art.

[00:25:36] Randall Roth: Why then for example, the listeners of public radio, I just was listening to the fundraising folks earlier today, and I think they said 10% of the listeners actually are members and and contribute to this. And I don't know if it's different with public radio than it is with um you know other forms of of art. Um, I get the impression George that that if it's a voluntary sort of thing, that it's a small percentage that that kick in.

[00:25:58] George R. Ellis: I I you know, I don't know. I don't know what all the figures are around for each uh of the areas. And in fact, Ken was referring to a study which which was put out by the NEA, that um is a very disturbing study quite frankly, and I I agree with him. There there seems to be because of of a an aging um population, the new children who are coming along, the baby boomers, etc, who are not as involved in public funding of the arts, funding of the arts, period. Now I mean just that's in general, and the comments made in the report weren't just about public funding, they were about funding the arts. Um, that brings up the whole issue of education and I think we've been doing a very bad job in arts education in our public schools. I think we're breeding a new generation of people who have not have do not have uh contact with the arts. And I think there's great difficulty associated with that. And one of the points I was making uh regarding how well our children are going to do is dependent on arts education, the point about the percentage of the race and the the rise in in the percentage points in the SAT scores, which I think is a very telling thing. So I am disturbed and I don't know about public radio, but I think that we have to be very concerned about this.

[00:27:12] Randall Roth: And you'd say cutting government support of the arts would be going the wrong direction.

[00:27:14] George R. Ellis: Absolutely, totally the wrong direction.

[00:27:17] Ken Schoolland: Well, I think that uh George has has indicated how easy it would be to tap the rest of the market if they if they really are interested in supporting the arts uh that it's no problem um getting them to uh to uh contribute voluntarily. And the thing is it's just easier to force people to pay for it than to go out there and persuade them. Um and it's a lot easier to go to the legislature and get money than it is to go to uh um uh to go to the population and directly sell it to the population. Um please remember that it there is much as $35 billion is spent for the entire art art in the entire arts industry. The national endowment for the arts is only uh uh $1 compared to every 350 in the industry. Uh it's certainly not going to die. Arts are not going to die. It's not not a matter of money, it's a matter of taste. If people are producing what uh people want to pay for, then there's no problem. And they do. They pay plenty for these sorts of things.

[00:28:12] Randall Roth: So the dollar amount, less than $100 million a year on a national level is is so small that that the money itself isn't as important to you can as the principle. The principle being that the money is taken from others.

[00:28:22] Ken Schoolland: Oh, absolutely.

[00:28:24] Randall Roth: Sure. Let me just quote uh Sir Humphrey Applebee, the the figure in a BBC's yes minister series. He said subsidy is for art, for culture. It is not to be given to what the people want. It is for what the people don't want, but ought to have. If they want something, they'll have to pay for it themselves. I think that some people deciding what other people ought to have in art is uh wrong. It's an imposition on a very, very deeply personal and important thing. Their values about artistic, uh uh uh ideas, and these uh should not be foisted on people. It's not uh it's no longer any virtue when it's forced on them.

[00:30:34] Randall Roth: to give somebody and that if you give somebody and that if you give somebody

[00:30:38] Randall Roth: they they've given us uh a license to go for our full hour but I told them that I would let any listener know that any listener who likes this show, who would like to support public radio in some way, to let you know that if you can call 944-8800 and make a pledge, we'd really appreciate it. Nobody's going to twist your arm or put a gun to your head. Uh if you think that this show is worth supporting, call 944-8800. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-888-970-8800. Again, we appreciate folks just playing listening but if you want to take that additional step and support this program and other programming on Hawaii Public Radio, we'd appreciate appreciate that a lot. George Ellis, you had a reaction.

[00:31:25] George R. Ellis: Oh, just I I'd like to repeat again, uh the fact that we're not taking money from anyone. Over 60% of the people say they want to give money to public funding for the arts and over 50% of them want to give more. So I I don't understand why we keep coming back to this issue of taking money.

[00:31:41] Randall Roth: And and I guess what you're saying is is they want some of that government money, some of the taxes that are being collected without you know a label on it. They want some of that to go to the arts. Is that the point? That's correct.

[00:31:52] George R. Ellis: Okay. The the 60% who want to give you the money are not spending are not saying take their money, they're saying take other people's money as well. Is that the way democracy works?

[00:32:05] Randall Roth: Well, uh George, do you think that uh democracy uh can rule every aspect of our lives. If it's if it's not right for you to take somebody else's money, is it okay to take it if you can get a a large number of people to outvote someone? Oh, it's turning political. Okay, okay. We we go to Winston from uh Honolulu. Good morning, Winston.

[00:32:25] Winston: Good morning. Uh, I just want to say I I very much agree with Ken Schooland. Um, art should be funded voluntarily. Um to the extent that people appreciate arts, they can they can pay on their own on their own free will. They should not they do not need to be forced to pay. Okay, so if they like this show, they can call 944-8800s. Is that what you're saying, Winston?

[00:32:49] Winston: Exactly. Okay. And I I want to make a comment about what George said. He said um he even repeated that uh over 50% of people in some survey, um said that they were willing to pay um for the arts. Well, if they're willing to pay, then they certainly don't need to be forced to pay. Okay, Winston, we appreciate your call. We go to George on the Big Island. Good morning, George.

[00:33:14] George R. Ellis: Hi. Um What a point I want to bring up is that uh whenever I make a contribution, I'm taking somebody else's money. When I give uh George Ellis's Academy of Arts $1,000, uh government kicks back to me uh $400 in tax exemption. I'm really only out of pocket $600. Now, where do you think that $400 comes from? So government is supporting I'm sorry, George, you I just want to make sure I understand correctly, you're saying government supports the arts in two ways, one by direct grants and the other by giving a tax break to those people who contribute money? That's right. And those people who don't contribute money are bearing the burden uh of the gift that the government has given me. So those those slaves in uh in Ken's metaphor have uh a couple loads on their shoulders even though they might even only see just one. Well, that's true, but I mean how it would Ken Schooland uh and and McWilliams uh abolish the uh tax deduction for charitable giving? Oh, that's a good question. I I'm delighted to have any tax deductions at all. Anything to reduce people's taxes.

[00:34:24] Randall Roth: George, what's what's your point? What's your position? Well, my point is, he's willing to do that, but what he is doing is passing that exemption burden on to uh non-contributors. So you're saying if if he were a purist, he would not only say the government shouldn't be giving money to artists, he would be saying the government shouldn't give a tax break to folks who make a contribution to an organization like George's the Honolulu Academy of Arts? Precisely.

[00:34:52] Randall Roth: Well, I would say that if if the government uh then accepts so much less money from a a contributor, then they ought to spend that much less. You know I mean it it it shouldn't mean that then they for they will take so much more money from somebody else. George, anything else? No, that's it. Thank you. We go to David on Maui. Good morning, David. Good morning. Um I just have to one quick comment I want to throw in here. Um What is widely popular in uh the um in all fields of the arts, tends to be what is in the very west of bad taste. So that's where the public money goes. I mean, compare for example the music of Lloyd Webber to the music of Vaughn Williams. Now, in England, Radio 3 has needed to be government supported, so that music that's worth hearing will have a chance over all the the crap that most people are willing to support. So David, you're for government support of the arts because that's how you get good arts as opposed to the bad art. Well, that that that is a large, you know, it could happen. The problem is that very often the people who are dispersing the government monies don't have very good taste. You know, what we really need is an autocracy of people who really know what is good and what isn't. Okay. But happily, there tends to be political considerations, and this doesn't always happen. Okay. Thank you, David. Appreciate your call. Um kind of curious. Let's we haven't heard from Bob McWilliams for a while. Bob is our full-time studio potter who's been with us by phone. Bob, what do you think of uh the comment you just heard? Um, yeah I think David's got a good point there. Um there tends to be a a trend, yeah, when a artist is recognized by the State Foundation and Culture in the Arts, that they they've got a tremendous stamp of approval. This is something that's on a lot of resumes that they've had pieces bought by the State Foundation and Culture in the Arts. And whether that directly relates to quality or not, you know, we haven't really talked a whole lot about artistic quality here yet. Um does the State Foundation on Culture and the Arts, uh um stamp of approval mean that the work is of high quality? Well, there's no objective way of of figuring out just how high or low the quality of any piece of art might be. So isn't that as good as any to say that a a diverse group of individuals, as George was describing earlier, has decided that uh one work of art is is worthy of being purchased with government funds as opposed to the many other works that they could have have purchased, doesn't that sanction it in some way? Um, I don't know if sanctioned by a committee is is a worthwhile gauge for uh for judging the quality of art. The the marketplace should decide that? Um, that's that's the way I've always worked, and it's worked good for me. because our our last caller I think was suggesting that sometimes what's popular isn't necessarily that which uh a culture should uh encourage. Let me get a reaction from

[00:38:00] George R. Ellis: or jealous here in the studio.

[00:38:01] Ken Schoolland: Well, I guess I'm just a naysayer all the time. I seem to be disagreeing more often than not.

[00:38:07] George R. Ellis: But Bob, one thing I'd point out, there are some things that the marketplace can't determine. Um, I doubt that a 30-foot mural, 10 ft high, 30 ft long is something that you're going to be able to market very easily. Um, there are certain state commissions, etc that that are site specific that you you can't work in that way. I mean you just can't do that. And the process of making the selection of those works is as fair as any that I've ever seen in any aspect of my life and I think you have to go with it.

[00:38:37] Ken Schoolland: Well, I think the, the selection for that type of work is is one thing but there's often a lot of, maybe not in Hawaii but there's an awful lot of corporate buying of large pieces of art out there also and that that falls into a big category too.

[00:38:55] George R. Ellis: Okay. Ken Skooland.

[00:38:56] Ken Schoolland: Uh, the comment about, um, music worth hearing and bad taste and all really uh points to the fact that, uh, art and, uh, music, literature, all of this is very, very, very subjective. You know, what is one person's taste is another person's uh trash perhaps. Um, I'm sure that, uh, some people might, uh, find art in a very large mound of, um, old Pepsi cartons, for example, and other people might say that it isn't art. It's merely, um, a pile of Pepsi cartons.

[00:39:28] George R. Ellis: Or or a bus.

[00:39:29] Ken Schoolland: Or a bus. Yes. And is it true in your piece this morning's paper, you suggested that the government has supported, uh, performance artists who, uh, ate a bus over a five year period of time and little bitty bits and pieces. And you're, and you're showing, you're showing me the article from Night Rider Service, and it says, bizarre art and you paid for it.

[00:39:52] George R. Ellis: I mean, but that's not the point cuz I I I'm not attacking art. George is saying that's that's the exception and nothing in this world is going to be perfect.

[00:40:01] Ken Schoolland: People have a perfect right to do these things with their own money or with the money that they can persuade other people to do. Um, and I'm only objecting to the fact that other people try to impose what they believe is art. I mean, with with good reason, I mean for for the same reason that throughout history people have wanted to impose what they viewed as the uh the essence of religion on other people. And they've done it with the greatest of motives and the greatest of intentions, uh, noblest ideals, but it's still wrong to impose it. In a free society, people have to be allowed to choose these things for themselves.

[00:40:34] George R. Ellis: And and George has correctly pointed out that that with you, this discussion this morning is is really, um, or or it it it flows from a basic belief in the importance of liberty. Hence the term libertarian party that you believe don't treat on me. My liberty is is something special that that there's something wrong with a society that is compelling neighbors to do things unless it's something that is absolutely essential to the survival of that society. Yeah, certainly. And I it's not only important to me, it's important to the society as a whole.

[00:41:04] George R. Ellis: Uh the the times when censorship and compulsory funding reached their peak were in, for example, during the Cold War when Solzhenitsyn and Valclav Havel were people who, uh, were not only persecuted for what they wrote, but their rivals, their foes were all funded to the hilt, produced very little except uh a basins to the to the state. And, um, and uh it it it it it's a dangerous thing to have the government uh start to encroach on the whole area of art, which is such a deeply personal thing. Okay. George Ellis. Oh yeah, well. Come back. It's a great investment, right?

[00:41:39] George R. Ellis: Uh, it is. But, um, and and we can look at it from an economic standpoint. Well, in all seriousness, that's something we haven't really developed. Why don't you share your thoughts as to why this fits in with this discussion that's going on right now about revitalizing Hawaii's economy and then I'm going to remind listeners what this is all about and we'll head toward the finish. Okay. The one one of the buzzwords in tourism these days is cultural tourism and it it is quite clear from all the surveys that no tourist destination will survive without proper cultural attractions. They're just simply not going to be competitive.

[00:42:10] George R. Ellis: Hawaii has those. We have in place, uh, over 90 museums, we have Symphony orchestras, we have ballet, we have the opera, we have any number of cultural attractions that can be promoted. Unfortunately, unless they survive, there isn't going to be anything to promote and this is in addition to traditional Hawaiian culture. I'd like to point out also that the State Foundation has funded over a very long period of time, uh, folk art apprenticeships which have kept alive traditional Hawaiian folk arts. Without those, there is no cultural tourism. It's a big, big issue at this moment in time.

[00:42:45] George R. Ellis: And in in your article on page B4 of the Hanalulu advertiser, you emphasize that this really is a a a good investment part of this cultural tourism but also just in terms of the number of jobs that are created and the amount of activity that it, uh, it primes if you will. It it it primes the pump in the economy.

[00:43:03] George R. Ellis: Absolutely. Okay. Well, in case you tuned in late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. We're talking about government funding of the arts in the studio with me is George Ellis, who's the director and president of the Honolulu Academy of Arts and then also Ken Skooland, who's a professor of economics and political science at Hawaii Pacific University. With us by phone for the entire hour has been Marcia Morris, who's a professor of art at Honolulu Community College and herself an artist and art critic and also Bob McWilliams, who's a full-time studio potter here in Hawaii.

[00:43:33] George R. Ellis: We've got a couple of people who have been on the line and we're going to get to them and then we're also going to give our guests an opportunity to emphasize or add or delete or whatever needs to be, um, done at this stage of the show. Let's go to Bill from Kailua though.

[00:43:47] Bill: Bill, are you still there? Yes, good morning to you all. I feel that, uh, there should be a differentiation with respect to funding, uh, when it concerns the performing arts versus the graphical pictorial arts. The, uh, you know, we do have um, fully supported of the, orchestral and the performing arts by the government because that requires large sums of money to keep to get that, uh, before the public, that sort of thing. Uh, however, the pictorial and and graphic arts, this is something that that where the subjective opinion, that really plays a much greater part than the in in the performing arts.

[00:44:34] Bill: Okay. And I think there should be a clear differentiation with respect to the funding when it comes to the the funding of pictorial arts as versus the performing arts. Okay. Bill, we've we've we have to move on.

[00:44:49] George R. Ellis: I've got some other people waiting, um, but I I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts with us this morning. Sam uh Sam Slom from Hawaii Kai. Good morning, Sam.

[00:44:58] Sam Slom: Aloha. Good morning to your guest. What a very interesting program this morning. And, uh, you know, I've made a great sacrifice because I even turned down the sound on the NFL games to to listen to you, and that shows you where my priorities are as far as art. I think George Ellis, he really he really deserved the award as uh salesman of the year. And George, I have some of my four-year-old and seven-year-old son's arts uh artwork uh on the doors uh and inside my capital office building, and I'd like you to help me sell them, you know, to the to the state. Get some of that money.

[00:45:31] George R. Ellis: No, I I don't think you can do that, but I can think you can take great pride in the fact that your children have an opportunity to create those paintings.

[00:45:37] Sam Slom: Yeah, but you know, they they were able to create the paintings without any government subsidy whatsoever.

[00:45:41] George R. Ellis: That's amazing. I I'm I I am really very pleased but I think that without government subsidy, they're not going to have proper arts education in the schools.

[00:45:48] Sam Slom: Oh, no, I can't believe that, George. And I I'm just amazed that how can somebody like Ken Skooland uh publish several books all around the world and how can Bob McWilliams have beautiful potter for 21 years without government and thousands and thousands and thousands more. Uh you and Marcia are talking about priming the pump, um and yet, of course, that's a good Keynesian economic term, and the idea even there was, you primed it when things were bad and then you left it alone, but we're talking about a perpetual program.

[00:46:17] Sam Slom: And Marcia talked about a a partnership, and you keep talking about investment, but when I make investments, it's voluntary. I invest in what I want to and if I don't want to invest, or if I have other priorities like taking care of my family, that's where my money goes. So it's not really a partnership because there's nothing mutual and there's nothing voluntary about it and I think that's the real problem.

[00:46:36] George R. Ellis: Sam, as usual, you've made your point well.

[00:46:38] Sam Slom: Thank you very much. Oh, what we I gotta say one more thing though, about these guidelines and about artists being registered with the state, since I sit on the committees, um, I see that often times politicians use those lists of artists and fundraising letters go out to them. So it's a quid pro quo thing and I think we should keep that in mind.

[00:46:57] George R. Ellis: Um, excuse me, but that's that's no. That's not. That's not. That's not. I'm sitting here and and you know it's true George. No, absolutely untrue. Sam, we have here what's called a nice, friendly, healthy difference of opinion. Great conversation. Have a great day. Sam, thanks for your call. Uh, let's go to Marcia Morris on the phone. Marcia, I bet you didn't agree with too much of what Sam was just saying. Um, any thoughts to share about it or anything else as we're winding toward the last 10 minutes or so of the show?

[00:47:29] Marcia Morris: Yeah, clearly we have some philosophical differences, and I think although we, uh, George and I are using sort of the the the rhetoric of of economics, um, I think the the point is important that, uh, as I mentioned earlier, arts are part of infrastructure and where if we're willing to pay for other parts of our national and local infrastructure, I think the arts need to be included.

[00:47:48] George R. Ellis: And so I understand Marcia, by infrastructure, you're saying just as we have roads and bridges and things like that the government provides, the government needs to provide in some degree the art that's in our society as well.

[00:47:59] Marcia Morris: Yeah, yeah, simply put. Um, I'd I'd like to go back to another point that was made earlier with reference to taste, because that word has come up in a number of different context. Uh but before I do that, first of all, I'd like to say hats off to Bob McWilliams because he is doing what very few artists in this state or or even in the country can do, which is to support himself through his work as an artist and I think that's really laudable.

[00:48:24] Marcia Morris: Uh, I'm sorry that that has sort of tipped the balance in terms of his perception about the value of support for other artists who do not work in the same way. But with reference to the issue of taste, um, David from Maui made an interesting point, uh, and I I think that there is concern that there's a kind of Gresham's law operating with regard to the arts entirely at the um whim of of market sensibility.

[00:48:48] Marcia Morris: Uh, I think it is true and we're concerned very much, um, with the exploitation for example of certain cultural symbols, uh in terms of uh, sort of mass produced. I'm not even sure I could call it art, but but work that purports to be that. Uh, and, and I think that the issue of diversity, which I sort of opened with, I think is precisely what's needed for, um, counterbalancing that and assuring that there won't be an imposition of taste, good or bad, if you will, on um, the viability of the arts. Um, and I think that, uh, uh Ken also sort of address that issue in terms of taste with reference to subjectivity.

[00:49:31] Marcia Morris: I think that the process of selection, um, jury of peers, jury of, in fact, a broad uh spectrum of the community, uh, certainly nationally and certainly I know from personal experience locally through the state foundation, really makes sure that, as much as possible, we try to use objectively articulated criteria for selection.

[00:49:53] George R. Ellis: Okay. Marcia, we really appreciate your participation with us this morning.

[00:49:57] Marcia Morris: Thank you.

[00:49:58] George R. Ellis: Uh, Ken Skooland is over here having a fit. Well, you know, I, I, I think it's an interesting, objective criteria for selecting subjective art is, is a rather, seems to me a little odd.

[00:50:09] Ken Schoolland: I didn't mean that critically. Ken, I just meant that you, you had a strong reaction to what Marcia had just said. Yeah, because I, it seems it would be um a contradiction to have, uh, such a objective criteria for selecting such a subjective thing. But let me mention this. Uh, the um, it in a way it's a philosophical difference, but, uh, mine is advocating freedom of choice and theirs is advocating taking away freedom of choice. So it's fundamental. It's philosophical, yes, but it has very practical consequences.

[00:50:37] Ken Schoolland: Um, I don't think that the Hawaii's economy is suffering for a lack of art's funding around in the state for all these years. If it had been successful, we wouldn't be in the seven years of stagnation that we're in. We're in this right now um because we have one of the highest tax rates in the country, we have unemployment rate that is one of the the fifth worst in the nation.

[00:50:55] Ken Schoolland: The US News and World Report article this month came out saying that it that, uh, for three years, well I led the nation in annual cost of doing business, uh on its survey. Last year it ranked fourth worst in the business failures. Half the states' 770 hotels are operating in the red. There's a net loss of 13,000 residents in the state.

[00:51:12] Ken Schoolland: Um, now these are things that are, are attributable, I think far more to the tax burden and the regulatory burden of the state of Hawaii and it's rather, um, So on a philosophical level, there is a connection between today's topic, government support of the arts, and the various problems that you've just listed. Sure. Sure. Uh these these problems don't, uh, uh aren't going to be solved by having, uh, uh the government take a, a bigger and stronger role in controlling our lives. I believe that it's a freer society that is likely to be able to solve these problems.

[00:51:43] George R. Ellis: Let me ask you, and and and only if this can be answered quickly, because we're running out of time, are you willing to accept a society where we only have, and I have to put this in quotes, because it means different things to different people, but we only have popular art. We only have that art that that folks are out there paying for as opposed to, uh, symphonies or something else that perhaps is, is here today at least in part because of government support.

[00:52:08] George R. Ellis: Well, it's a there's a condescending attitude, which is part of the elitism, a condescending attitude, uh, towards what people pay for willingly out of their own pockets in the marketplace, whether it be jazz or pop or rock or country music and so on. But to me, that is art and the people that are producing that consider themselves artists and it's rather condescending uh for other people to suggest they're not artists or they're not good artists because uh people were actually willing to pay for what they produce and somebody who can't find somebody to pay for what they're producing is an artist.

[00:52:38] George R. Ellis: Okay. Uh let's hear, uh, final comments from our other artists. We heard, uh, Marcia Morris a few minutes ago. Um, Bob McWilliams has been on the phone. Bob is a full-time studio potter, uh, who's work sell at the art plantation and global interiors in Holiva, uh, following see in Kahalamal and Nohia Gallery at Ward Warehouse. Bob, final comments.

[00:53:00] Bob McWilliams: Yeah, thanks for having me on, Randy, and I just wanted to make a couple of final points. The State Foundation and Culture and the Arts and the National Endowment for the Arts uh has really only been around since around 65 and a lot of artists survived before that, uh, without these organizations.

[00:53:17] Bob McWilliams: And I think what's happened in in the meantime since 65 and and growing all the time is that, uh, artists a certain amount of artists become dependent on these political handouts and uh tend to uh only go toward the government to get these because as Ken said a little earlier, it's a lot easier to just go to one place to try and get uh funding or acquisitions of their art, uh, rather than going out in the broad marketplace to, uh, to market their art.

[00:53:46] George R. Ellis: Do you uh, do you believe what what Sam Slom earlier was was saying he believes that it gets tied into political contributions and and political lobbying and and that politics becomes a part of it, uh, when somebody is wanting their works to be uh purchased by government.

[00:54:04] Bob McWilliams: I really don't know about the contributions and and that sort of thing. Um, he would know about that more than I would, but I do know I have been to political gatherings, um, specifically for mayoral candidates and, uh, artists were continually bringing up uh programs that they would like to see enacted, and questioning the candidates about, um, you know, whether there there would be funding for the artists for this program or that program, and a certain amount of, uh, lobbying was taken uh taking place at those gatherings.

[00:54:38] George R. Ellis: Okay. So, uh, the artists do become dependent on that sort of thing. Bob, we really appreciate your participation this morning. Okay, thank you. Well, George Ellis, uh, you started this thing and depending on, depending on what you say, you may be ending this. I kind of hesitate to say I'd like to end it.

[00:54:56] George R. Ellis: We're we're getting toward the end of the hour and and just in case I run out of time, I I do want to make one last, and please maybe not the right word, but I'll say it anyway, a plea to our listeners that if you do enjoy this show, if you do think it is worthwhile, uh, we encourage you to support Hawaii Public Radio.

[00:55:14] George R. Ellis: Uh there isn't any cost associated with this show. We're all volunteers, but there's certainly is a cost associated with keeping this radio station here and keeping this, uh, crackerjack staff on the job and if you would like to support what we're doing and what they're doing, call 944-8800 or on a neighbor island 1-888-970-8800. In fact, Susie and I are going to run upstairs in a little bit and if you want to wait and uh talk to us personally, that'd be fine too, but it's 944-8800. George Ellis, I'm sorry, but I just took all your time. No, no, I'm I'm kidding. No, that's okay. Go ahead. What do you have What do you have to say?

[00:55:54] George R. Ellis: Well, Ken is implying that uh that the arts are are one of the uh co-defendants in, in the economic malaise the state is in right now because we've been funding uh the arts. I'd like to say the arts are going to be essential to our survival. If we don't continue to fund the arts right now, vis--vis tourism, more than 50% of the economy depended on it, etc., and if we don't understand that cultural tourism is going to be the key to the future, we're going to be in big trouble. We're not wasting taxpayer's money. We're investing taxpayer's money.

[00:56:24] George R. Ellis: Um, I'd also like to say that governments help to to create and and sustain not only a climate encouraging freedom of thought, imagination and inquiry, but also the material conditions facilitating the release of this creative talent. We must have government support for the arts. Okay. Ken Skooland, you've got 20 seconds.

[00:56:43] Ken Schoolland: Well, oh, 30. Go ahead. Uh, in in people invest when they risk when they take a risk with their own money. They don't are, uh, risk um when they're taking somebody else's money. I, I assert that because if it's wrong for you to go to your neighbor's house and to take his money to spend it on

[00:57:00] Randall Roth: art that you like and that he may not have any interest in. Then it's also wrong for you to go to the politicians and ask them to do it for you. I don't believe that, um, well let me just wind up with a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. Beauty will not come at the call of the legislature. It will come as always, unannounced and spring up between the feet of brave and earnest men. And I think that a free society is more likely to have, um, better art, more art, and more personal art than if the politics get in the way.

[00:57:29] Randall Roth: Well, folks, that's it. I want to thank my guests, George Ellis, the director and president of the Honolulu Academy of Arts, Ken Skooland, the professor of economics and political science at Hawaii Pacific University, Marcia Morris, a professor of art at Honolulu Community College, and artist and art critic, and Bob McWilliams, a full-time studio potter who previously taught school in Chicago.

[00:57:51] Randall Roth: Our producer is Susie Roth, our technical wizard and director of operations at Hawaii Public Radio is Jeff Alardi, our helper sometimes, he didn't make it this morning, but Tom Roth. Again, if uh you'll stay tuned in just a few minutes, Susie and I are going to run upstairs. Maybe we can get our guest to join us. But we'll be there trying to raise a little money to keep this studio on the air, keep this station on the air.

[00:58:12] Randall Roth: The number is going to be 944-8800 or on a Neighbor Island 1-888-970-8800. Without your support, not just listening to Hawaii Public Radio, but without your financial support, it's just not going to be here much longer. Oh, that sounded pretty draconian. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.