Beach Liability and County Immunity
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-10-15
Guests: Bob Toyofuku (tort lawyer and lobbyist); Hazel Beh (Associate Dean, UH Law School); Ralph Goto (Water Safety Head)
Duration: 01:08:58

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Welcome to Coast of Pop Radio. We're broadcast live each Sunday at 8:00 AM on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM and then rebroadcast at 8:00 PM on KIFO 1380 AM. Everyone who works on this program is a volunteer. We do what we do because we enjoy it and also because we believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our airtime is partially paid for by a grant from the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that facilitates philanthropy by providing compassionate and efficient administration of a wide variety of permanent charitable funds.

[00:00:42] Randall Roth: Our topic today has to do with beach safety, beach liability, county immunity, lawyers, and lifeguards and we'll kind of untangle all of those thoughts in just a little bit. But first, I want to introduce our guests in the studio. We have Hazel Beh, who is the acting associate dean at the University of Hawaii School of Law. Hazel has her law degree from the University of Hawaii, where she was first in her class, and also a Master of Social Work from UH and a PhD in American studies. She was deputy corporations counsel from 1993 to 95. Corporation Counsel is the term used to describe attorneys for the city and county.

[00:01:23] Randall Roth: Bob Toyofuku is a lobbyist for the Hawaii Trial Lawyers Association. Bob has his law degree from Boston University and an advanced law degree from New York University. He's been involved in continuing legal education for 18 years. Currently, he's the executive director and president of the Pacific Law Institute. Also, he's the editor publisher of the Hawaii Appallette court reporter. Ralph Goto is the water safety administrator for the city and county of Honolulu and has been the administrator for about 15 years. He has a degree from the University of Hawaii in philosophy, in philosophy, and has lectured at UH Manoa and several community colleges.

[00:02:04] Randall Roth: He is the person who came up with some award-winning innovations, including international signs and jet ski rescues. Perhaps, we'll hear a little bit more about that later in the show. Hazel, Bob, Ralph, good morning and welcome to Pop Radio.

[00:02:20] Hazel Beh: Good morning.

[00:02:20] Bob Toyofuku: Good morning.

[00:02:21] Randall Roth: If you haven't seen your advertiser this morning in the focus section on B3, there is a big bold headline, who is liable? And then under that question, another question, will lawsuits against government agencies force the shutdown of beaches and trails? On the left side, we've got an article by Hazel Beh on the right by Bob Toyofuku and very appropriately sandwiched right in between the lawyers is Ralph Goto. I think we'll start by having Hazel and Bob briefly describe what your respective positions are on this question of beach safety, liability and county immunity. Hazel?

[00:03:02] Hazel Beh: Well, I think when I first came to the city, I was in the the city was in the middle of a beach trial. And I realized that there was a collision in public policy between three different factors. One was the fiscal responsibility of taking guarding your tax money carefully. The second was public safety, because if we're interested in public safety, we need to be out on the beaches more rather than less. And the third was the incentive the federal government and the state puts on the counties to expand public access to the ocean.

[00:03:33] Hazel Beh: And you couldn't be true to all three of those interests while litigating whether people should be um when people were injured at the beach.

[00:03:43] Randall Roth: So you feel something is wrong with the system. And to fix it, you're suggesting that the counties be given immunity from lawsuits.

[00:03:51] Hazel Beh: That's right. When you look at over 40 states, they figured out that you have to limit liability in order to give local governments the incentive to get out on the beaches and patrol them. If they're exposed to multi-million dollar judgments, their integrity to the taxpayers suggests they maybe shouldn't be doing that kind of activity.

[00:04:11] Randall Roth: So over 40 states have some form of immunity and perhaps those states, like Kansas that don't have a beach, what we're talking about hiking trails or or other open areas that the government is responsible for?

[00:04:26] Hazel Beh: That's right. Even in inner states, I think Ralph can support this, there are a lot of drownings in lakes and streams.

[00:04:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob, I guess you're saying that it's not broken or or if it is broken, there's a better way to fix it than to give the counties immunity from lawsuits?

[00:04:41] Bob Toyofuku: I think that improvement is always possible to the legal system, and I think there is constant focus on improving the legal system. But our position is very simple and very clear. We don't think that there should be absolute immunity given to any party, including government, who is responsible for injury to another. And I think that's where the tension is and responsibility of the individual who is injured as well as government, who we feel has a duty to warn of certain dangerous conditions.

[00:05:10] Randall Roth: And do you feel that way because you think an injured party ought to be able to to sue and recover from someone, or do you feel that way because you think that liability is is essential in order to to keep people careful?

[00:05:24] Bob Toyofuku: I think it's a little bit of both. Our tort system and tort, you'll hear that word is really fault, it's fault law, and the tort system really creates a situation uh a deterrent effect from negligent action of individuals and also uh provides a uh system of compensation for those who are injured and uh through the fault of someone else.

[00:05:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Well Ralph, um, you know, I've talked to a number of people getting ready for this show and and a constant theme is that uh people like you are caught between the lawyers and you find yourselves listening more to lawyers now than than you find yourself following your own experience and education so far as how to keep things safe. Um, is that an accurate description of where you are right now?

[00:06:11] Ralph Goto: I think I think it certainly is. The role the lifeguards in Hawaii as well as around the country is has really evolved uh and changed dramatically because of of the legal implications of what we do. We have traditionally Lifeguards have traditionally been viewed as uh people sitting in towers waiting for things to happen and I think the role uh of of lifeguards and water safety professionals now has changed to a more proactive uh prevention role.

[00:06:38] Ralph Goto: And caught in the middle of of of trying to prevent everything from happening, is the very real realization that we're not going to be able to prevent every uh injury that occurs and and we do need as professionals some kind of relief of of this specter hanging over our heads so that we are freed to do what we consider the right thing um from a water safety perspective.

[00:07:01] Randall Roth: Do you agree with with Hazel's statement in her article this morning that the current system is having a a perverse effect that things could be safer if the counties had immunity? And and it's perverse because the tort system is supposed to make things safe by by holding the county's feet to the fire, saying if you don't make things as safe as possible, then you're going to have a lot of liability exposure as a result. Um, would you agree with Hazel's suggestion?

[00:07:28] Ralph Goto: Absolutely, absolutely. We think that by allowing us to do the job of water safety professionals without the fear, if you will, of of of further liability issues coming up down the road. That that allows the the lifeguards on the beach to do what they're trying to do without having to outguess or outthink uh every incident that occurs.

[00:07:51] Randall Roth: What would you do differently or what would you stop doing if if Hazel were to get her wish and the counties were given immunity that counties were were never again going to be sued by someone who had an an accident at the beach. What would that mean in terms of of your people?

[00:08:08] Ralph Goto: I don't think that the lifeguards would do what they do on the beach on a day-to-day basis uh any differently. I think that that that the commitment to preventing incidents from happening and the commitment to uh the well-being of people on the beach is something that we we won't uh hide or or or ignore. What it would it would allow uh lifeguards and and water safety professionals to do uh is to get on with our jobs and and to look into areas of research and development uh rather than to kind of look around us and behind us all the time.

[00:08:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob, you're you're kind of outnumbered. There are three in the studio, two of whom are on the side of giving the counties immunity and we're going to go to some people on the phone that we've had uh arranged to be available to us this morning. And uh I didn't do this on purpose, but uh more of them are going to be on the side of county immunity than on your side. What's your reaction to what you're hearing so far?

[00:09:03] Bob Toyofuku: By the way, I'm sort of used to being outnumbered. But I just wanted to comment on something that Ralph said. Uh we know that the lifeguards which really are the first line of defense and they do an excellent job, cannot prevent every injury. But I think what the public has to know is that not every injured person sues, not every injured person, even if they sued would would recover. The statistics show that very few people recover and there are not that many lawsuits in this area compared to the amount of accidents and injuries that do happen.

[00:09:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Hazel Beh, a comment and then we've got some folks uh on the line that we're going to go to. Hazel.

[00:09:42] Hazel Beh: I think that when you're talking about tax dollars, though, it's not just the outcome of trials that makes a difference. It's the exposure that really makes a difference. When you look at what a beach park means in terms of multi-million dollar exposure, you have to put that in your planning. And so I think that's what's holding people back from acquisition of beach lands right now.

[00:10:03] Randall Roth: So even if you don't lose a lawsuit, the the threat of losing a lawsuit and and the cost of defending the lawsuit, that's that's your point?

[00:10:09] Hazel Beh: That's right.

[00:10:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some people on on the line and and I think what we'll first do is is go to uh Stephen Yamashiro, who's the mayor of the Big Island and we'll get his thoughts on on what all of this means to him as as the mayor of of that particular city uh county. And then we're going to go to uh Rick Fried, who is a a trial lawyer and has litigated one of these beach liability cases. I believe uh one that he was involved with involved an accident out at the Sandy Beach.

[00:10:39] Randall Roth: And then we've got some other people on on the line and so we'll move right through those. Let's start with Stephen Yamashiro, the mayor of the Big Island. Good morning, Stephen.

[00:10:45] Stephen Yamashiro: Good morning.

[00:10:47] Randall Roth: Uh have you been listening to our guests in the studio?

[00:10:49] Stephen Yamashiro: Uh yes, I have.

[00:10:50] Randall Roth: Uh what's your reaction to what you're hearing?

[00:10:52] Stephen Yamashiro: Well, you know, I think what we have to realize a a few more basic points, I think Hazel has pointed out some uh good reasons for the uh the limitation of liability in the counties. But you know, one thing I think all of us in the community have to realize is that the governments are not the guarantors of each person's public safety. That we have a responsibility to ourselves, to our neighbors, to our fellow members in the community, to to act rationally, act reasonably, to do what is necessary to to preserve our own safety to start with.

[00:11:24] Stephen Yamashiro: And when we consider beach liability, one thing you got to realize, the people don't drown on property owned by the counties. The state has made it very clear that they are the owners of everything from the high wash of the wave seaward. And where we get hooked into the liability is making it uh accessible or providing a means of access to the water, and that is what the basis of the county's liabilities now.

[00:12:00] Stephen Yamashiro: We don't feel it's fair while we agree with Hazel there should be complete recreational liability, at least for a start. You know, if you look at the the laws within the state of Hawaii now, hotels get special treatment, the state gets special treatment, private landowners get special treatment. The only one with unlimited liability out there is the county, and we don't have any any ownership, we don't have any right of control, we can't go and make improvements.

[00:12:14] Randall Roth: And Stephen, I I think if I understand the situation correctly, um, if if you wanted to reduce or maybe even eliminate your liability, uh you would simply pull all your lifeguards, you would simply uh pick up your signs and lifeguards and go, is is that correct?

[00:12:31] Stephen Yamashiro: Well, it isn't that simple, Randy.

[00:12:32] Randall Roth: I'm not saying you would do it, but aren't the lawyers saying that that by providing access to the ocean, you are taking on liability that you otherwise wouldn't have?

[00:12:42] Stephen Yamashiro: Under the current situation and as a matter of fact, we did uh you know, Maui and Kauai, I believe, have already pulled their lifeguards from state beaches.

[00:12:52] Randall Roth: We're going to talk to Mayor Crocodile about that in

[00:12:55] Stephen Yamashiro: We're about to do the same thing uh on the Big Island because what we asked the state to do is to indemnify us. Uh you know, we will provide the lifeguard service on Hapuna and other state parks, and so and in exchange for that, uh please indemnify us from liability. They wouldn't, but what they did do is they stepped up and uh negotiated a insurance policy. But you know, that's what we're saying that the state is not willing to step forward and assume their responsibility with regards to their waters.

[00:13:24] Stephen Yamashiro: The counties are trying to do the best we can, you know. You look at the Big Island situation, I've got 4,000 square miles, I've got uh beach parks that are not even manned sometimes some parts of the day. And uh we cannot possibly uh keep maintaining the situation, the other alternative would be to close them down.

[00:13:44] Randall Roth: Yeah. And your lawyers, I'm sure, are telling you you've got an awful lot of exposure.

[00:13:48] Stephen Yamashiro: That's correct.

[00:13:49] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we really appreciate your your input. Thanks a lot.

[00:13:52] Stephen Yamashiro: Thank you.

[00:13:53] Randall Roth: Uh next on the line is Rick Fried. Rick is uh a well-known trial lawyer here in Hawaii. Uh Rick has been uh plaintiff's counsel on uh on a variety of high profile cases, at least one of which has involved um uh ocean uh injury and and uh county liability. Rick, can you hear me? Jeff, do we have Rick Fried on line one? Rick, are you there?

[00:14:18] Rick Fried: I'm here.

[00:14:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Have you been listening to uh the broadcast so far?

[00:14:22] Rick Fried: I have.

[00:14:22] Randall Roth: What are your thoughts?

[00:14:24] Rick Fried: Well, I think uh as Bob started to say, I think we all have an obligation to avoid harm unto one another. And I think Hawaii is unique because in almost always it seems, these these accidents seem to involve uh people that are lured here by our beautiful real brochures, the ads. I don't think you'll see an ad without our beautiful beaches in it. And all we're asking and these suits, as Bob has stated, are are very difficult to pursue. I think jurors understand uh as taxpayers where the money's coming from.

[00:15:16] Rick Fried: And I think the way to solve it, and I think our lifeguards do a super job uh in almost every situation. I think the way to solve the problem is just to provide uh the signs that we uh now have are are probably state of the art. I I think uh the the warnings are in most cases uh excellent, and I think in those situations, there's no uh way that somebody's going to recover. We look at uh many beach cases and uh take almost none of them.

[00:15:45] Randall Roth: Mhm. So so you're saying the current system is working just fine. That as long as the counties do a a a good job and and you're saying the legal system doesn't expect them to prevent injury, the system simply expects them not to be negligent.

[00:15:58] Rick Fried: And I understand the mayor's position, and I think uh uh one of the ways to solve that problem is an indemnification by the state for circumstances where the city is found liable, our county uh one of the uh say the Big Island or Maui, while guarding a state beach park.

[00:16:15] Rick Fried: But I I noticed that when I did read uh uh Hazel Beh's uh column this morning, she's talking about uh only uh uh situations involving uh local people that are they're in the water. And I think most people recognize the danger. They hear we try the case at uh Sandy Beach. I think there'd been 35 very significant neck and back injuries. Our case was a quadriplegic uh a fellow on his honeymoon and uh uh when you look at the numbers of certain uh beach parks uh where there's like 35 injuries versus millions of people at Waikiki with maybe one or two, there are obvious areas where the focus should be concentrated. And I think in most cases it uh it happens uh very well.

[00:16:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Rick, I really appreciate you're being available to us this morning.

[00:17:01] Rick Fried: My pleasure. Thank you.

[00:17:02] Randall Roth: Thanks again. Uh next on the line we have uh the mayor of Maui County, Linda Crockett Lingle. Good morning, Linda.

[00:17:08] Linda Crockett Lingle: Good morning, Randy.

[00:17:09] Randall Roth: And thanks uh for joining us again. You were uh one of our guests last week when we talked about gambling.

[00:17:15] Linda Crockett Lingle: Glad to be back on a real important topic to all of the people in our county.

[00:17:19] Randall Roth: What do you think of what you've been hearing so far?

[00:17:21] Linda Crockett Lingle: I think the American legal system just doesn't accept that there are accidents in life. And the kinds of incidents that we're talking about here could be that there's just no one who is responsible. I heard Bob Toyofuku talk about well, someone's got to be responsible when an accident occurs, and the fact is, there are some events in life that where no one is at fault.

[00:17:43] Linda Crockett Lingle: And certainly in the kinds of cases we're talking about, where someone goes into the ocean and is tragically injured by a wave, the people in our community didn't do anything wrong, and they are not responsible, and they should not have to pay, and they should not have to forego normal services in order to pay for these cases. And let me give you an example of what I mean. Right now, the County of Maui has five lawsuits pending against it for various types of uh beach accident cases. In three of the five cases, they're on state beaches, one at Kanapali and two at Big Beach.

[00:18:19] Linda Crockett Lingle: In the case at Kanapali, the beach it was an access way that the county required as a condition of development. Someone walked down this access way, then walked the half a mile down the beach and was injured in a wave, and we have been sued. We won initially on summary judgment after spending $220,000 in legal fees and now the case is being appealed. Well, that $220,000 could have bought an awful lot of playground equipment for the children of Maui. They should not have to forego that in order to defend a case that we had nothing to do with, we were not at fault.

[00:18:56] Randall Roth: Linda, is there a chance that you'll be closing beaches or pulling lifeguards from beaches are doing other things to to lessen your exposure?

[00:19:04] Hazel Beh: Well, yes, let me give you a couple of examples of the impacts already. We had a contract with the state government to guard big beach at, which has a very severe shore break. The state notified us that they were going to cut the funding for the lifeguards and that they would not indemnify us. In other words, we were going to still be responsible for accidents at that beach, and we did in fact pull all lifeguards off of big beach. So now you've got a situation where you have less protection than you had before because of the threat of a lawsuit because the state has not replaced our lifeguards with their own lifeguards. I'll give you a second example.

[00:19:41] Randall Roth: And and yet I assume people are continuing to use that beach?

[00:19:45] Hazel Beh: Absolutely, Randy. It's a tremendously popular beach, especially with uh, visitors as well as residents. Another kind of incident where you're going to limit access to the shoreline is the state asked us recently if we wanted to take over a beach called Slaughterhouse Beach out on West Maui and again we said, we would have been interested but because of this liability question, if they're not going to indemnify us, we just we can't afford to go forward with something like that.

[00:20:12] Randall Roth: And indemnification means that if if you were found liable, the state would pay it.

[00:20:16] Hazel Beh: That's correct. So while we we are committed to beach access in the county of Maui, this lack of immunity is going to lead and has already led to a lessening of access for the public.

[00:20:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Linda, thank you very much. We really appreciate your being available to us this morning.

[00:20:30] Hazel Beh: Thank you, Randy.

[00:20:31] Randall Roth: Uh, I'm going to remind listeners that this is Pop Radio. Uh, our guests in the studio are Hazel Bay, the acting Associate Dean at the University of Hawaii School of Law, Bob Toyofuku, who's a lobbyist for the Hawaii Trial Lawyers Association, and Ralph Goto, who's the Water Safety Administrator for the city and county of Honolulu. I have, um, one other person on the line that I'm going to go to right away, but then I want to encourage listeners to call us if you've got a question or a brief comment, our number is 955-8821 and neighbor islanders are always invited to call us collect. The number again is 955-8821.

[00:21:08] Randall Roth: Ken Robbins is a trial lawyer, but unlike Rick Freed, who is a plaintiffs lawyer, he's, uh, on the side of of the injured person seeking damages. Uh, Ken has been the lawyer for the county or or other organizations sued um, on beach liability in other cases. Ken are are you there?

[00:21:29] Ken Robbins: I am.

[00:21:30] Randall Roth: Um, you've been listening to all of this?

[00:21:31] Ken Robbins: I have.

[00:21:32] Randall Roth: Anything you'd like to add?

[00:21:34] Ken Robbins: Yes, uh, gosh, you ask a lawyer a question like that, and what what's he going to say?

[00:21:38] Randall Roth: Uh, you've got 15 seconds. Go ahead.

[00:21:41] Ken Robbins: Okay. Take your time. Now go ahead. All right. Um, a couple of things. Number one, and Ralph, um, alongside of whom I sat for many, many, many days in trial just this year alone, I think can comment on this further.

[00:21:56] Ken Robbins: Um, the plaintiff's attorneys, the attorneys who represent the injured parties and and Bob, his lobbyists for the plaintiff's attorneys in the legislature, talk about warning signs and the fact that we owe a duty to warn folks who come in from the mainland or other parts of the world, about the danger, the deceptive danger of our beaches. Well, I think something should be made very clear right up front, and that is there has not been a single study that has ever shown or proven to any to to any degree whatsoever that signs on beaches had any impact in modifying human behavior on the beach. So this whole notion of warning people by signs simply hasn't been shown to have uh to have any any impact or any effect whatsoever.

[00:22:45] Randall Roth: So when there's a sign next to the so-called jump rock that says, "Don't jump from this rock," you still have kids climbing up and jumping from that rock?

[00:22:53] Ken Robbins: Yeah, uh, for two reasons. One, um, they may not see the sign. Number two, um, they, um, may see the sign and the impact of the sign simply will will will not be there. And number three, there are risk takers who are going to jump because the sign is there. Then there's the the the second notion that, well, if lifeguards are on the beach, they can warn people. Well, it's ridiculous to think that on our heavily populated beaches that lifeguards can warn every single person. And as an attorney who has been defending these cases now for a good number of years, I know that that um, plaintiffs who have broken necks and are rendered quadriplegic are extraordinarily sympathetic, um, plaintiffs and and um, we have very warmhearted jurors and and the jurors, uh, obviously are going to feel sympathy, and and that's very difficult for a guy like me to to buck at trial. But let me offer one suggestion and again, I think Ralph can comment on this and that is, Ralph put, what is the solution? I don't think it's bigger and better warning signs. I don't think it's it's torque, liability. I think the counties and the and the state, the municipality should be immunized, just as Colorado, for instance, has immunized itself from liability on the ski slopes. If a person from Hawaii goes to Colorado and breaks a neck, they can't sue the the state or the county there. I think that Ralph came up with a very, very good solution, or partial solution anyway, that simply hasn't been implemented because I think the HVB is scared to death about it. And so would the airlines. And that is as su a terrific video that Ralph put together some years ago to be shown on planes on aircraft coming in to Hawaii. And if we can show um, Hawaiians with conch shells and and luring people to the beaches, why can't we show a video saying, "Look, we don't want to scare you, people." But But Right. our beaches are are are dangerous, and a small wave can hurt you, and for goodness sake, please be careful. Here is the Here's what the warning sign system looks like. We have lifeguards who are dressed like this and and are sitting in stands that look like this, and if in doubt, please, please ask a lifeguard. Okay. And there's one other myth here and that is only people who visit the the uh, the state of Hawaii um, get hurt and and bring these suits. Well, that's simply not true. The last case I tried was one that was that that occurred at Waimanalo Bay at Jump Rock where a young man who virtually lived at that beach broke his neck, or, I'm sorry, he didn't break his neck. He suffered a severe head injury while doing a handstand on Jump Rock, and he slipped, hit his head on some rocks below, and he sued the City and County of Honolulu. So, it isn't just visitors who are who are suing us. It's it's our own people.

[00:25:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Ken, thank you very much. We really appreciate your input. Well, we've heard, uh, a lot of voices. Uh, most of them, uh, Bob Toyofuku are on the side of, uh, of limiting the county's exposure from these lawsuits. Uh, why don't you just make a couple brief comments and then I've got a bunch of people on the phone and we're going to go to them for questions and and even briefer comments.

[00:26:02] Bob Toyofuku: Okay, thank you Randy. Uh, two brief comments to, uh, Ken Robbins' recent, uh, comment that there has been no study that shows that signs have an effect. I do disagree with that. I do believe that some of the people that are in the prevention area, um, have referred to studies that show that signs do have an effect, and I think Ralph Goto's state-of-the-art signs do have an effect. And I think that, you know, we have to realize, the lifeguards can't warn everybody. I don't think the legal system expects them to warn everybody about the dangers, but there are certain minimal things that a government should do if they are in control of the area, if they are in control of the beach park. One quick other comment to, uh, Mayor Yamashiro, um, he said that, uh, there's a special treatment for the state and for the hotels. The hotels are now limited to liability only for registered guests. Uh, that was passed in 1994. Uh, but there's a misconception that the state has different treatment. If the state is in charge of the beach park and has control, we feel, anyway, that they are liable in case they are negligent the same as the counties.

[00:27:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got a bunch of folks on on the line, and we're going to try to get to to everyone this morning. And so, I would ask each of you to just ask a a question or or make a brief comment. Let's start with Malcolm from Manoa. Good morning, Malcolm.

[00:27:27] Malcolm: Hello, uh, okay, I have written this down, I should be able to get to it quick. Since juries don't pay the judgment out of their own pocket, it doesn't cost them to anything to decide for frivolous reasons. Um, tort liability exposure laws uh, exposure causes private parties to close trails on private land, since government created the liability problem with laws and court rulings, why should government be exempt from the standards to which businesses and private owners are held? Would the elimination of pain and suffering awards or a loser-pays policy reduce the damage done by the legal system?

[00:28:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, let's get a response to that from Hazel Bay.

[00:28:03] Hazel Beh: I just wanted to make a comment about what governments do. Um, in our private lives, we would never invite the public onto our private land and say, "Here, have fun for free." But we expect our government to do that and the government does pay through the tax money for what they undertake. Um, another good example is we don't walk down alleys at 2:00 in the morning and break up fights, but we expect our government employees to do that. So I think that when you look at government functions, you do have to realize that there has to be some protection for the taxpayers. And you're referring to the police, so the police, walking and and firefighters and and lifeguards, you're saying are have common challenges.

[00:28:42] Randall Roth: Right. And I think if you look at the civil defense system, the hurricane warning system, there's a a large amount of immunity for civil defense functions, um, already and yet we have one of the best in the country. Um, so I think that you can't say that the government will shirk its duty if it has limited liability.

[00:34:28] Ralph Goto: Honolulu, I've been watching, uh, since I was driving I was I was watching looking people at the ocean and I heard this commentary going on. About 10 years ago, I started to do a series of studies for the Sea Grant program on, uh, water safety accidents using uh, Hawaii, Honolulu Fire Department statistics. And one of the things that came across very clearly was that about 50 to 60 percent of these very serious accidents that resulted in judgment happened again and again at the same places like at the toilet bowl at Hanauma Bay. And what was really frustrating about this was that people knew where these accidents were occurring, people in government, but there was no imaginative response. What what happened was people said, "Well, this seems to be an accident, but there's nothing we can do." And so as somebody mentioned earlier on, people from the mainland would come, again and again, they would get accidents in the same places, serious accidents. And so when I I hear some of the people who have come on this morning saying something in effect that, "Oh, uh, it's the government's responsibility to break up fights," or, or it's, um, you know, a private land owner wouldn't do what a what the city expects. You know, I I just wonder what kind of social responsibility these people have.

[00:35:45] Randall Roth: Let me let me ask, stay on the line, Mike. Let me ask Ralph Goto, uh, to respond to to what you've said so far. Let me just add one point before, maybe you can ask Ralph, you know, what the rate per 100,000 fatality is in Honolulu as opposed to California, relative to the number of people. I believe it's something like three or four times the rate of, of, of casualty in Hawaii than it is in California. Even though California beaches have maybe 10 times the number of people. And California coastline is very dangerous. So you're suggesting we're just not doing as good a job here?

[00:36:20] Ralph Goto: Uh, what I'm suggesting is that, that we have some of the best lifeguards in the world, but what we don't do is the kind of imaginative thinking to find out where these dangerous sites are and then prevent people from going there.

[00:36:32] Randall Roth: Okay, Ralph Goto. That's a a little bit of a challenge.

[00:36:35] Ralph Goto: I think that, um, Mike's absolutely right. We do have an idea of where injuries and drownings do occur more commonly or more, um, statistically, uh, more commonly than other areas. Uh, one of the things that that Marilyn brought up, one of the points that Marilyn brought up, of about closing beaches, I think has has an effect on all of us and it's a matter of public policy. If if we are, uh, as a matter of policy, as a as a society or as as a of government here in Hawaii have made it policy to keep our, uh, keep access to our beaches open, and have really gone out of our way to to ensure that the public has access to to the beach, then by saying that that the the threat of of legal action is going to force us, for instance, to remove lifeguards from a beach. Uh, you know, what does that say about the policy? And that is that points out, um, a good example of what we consider doing the legal thing as opposed to doing the right thing. You know, Does that suggest that maybe we should shut down a sandy beach, for example, if if there are you know, a high number of injuries and and deaths? Uh, I'm not sure I understand the implications of what you just said. Absolutely not. I don't I don't think that uh, we want to identify beaches and and say these are too dangerous so we're going to close them or close access to them.

[00:37:56] Randall Roth: So what what do you do once you've identified that here's a spot where we have lots of serious accidents, what do you do?

[00:38:03] Ralph Goto: I think that we look at the nature of the injuries, the type of injuries that are occurring, uh the mechanics, the mechanisms, the the conditions that occur uh in which these incidents occur and armed with that information try to design some strategies uh aimed at preventing them. Now, we're not going to be able to prevent every injury from occurring, but I think that we can look at a specifics of of these injuries and and design things and whether it be signage, whether it be putting more lifeguards there, whether it be uh trying to show the video to every visitor that gets here, it's a combination of those educational reactive strategies.

[00:38:41] Randall Roth: What about Mike's comment, if I understood it correctly, that uh we have more accidents per beach user here in Hawaii than in California. Um what what was the implication of that?

[00:38:54] Ralph Goto: I I think what Mike was referring to is that per capita, we have more deaths associated with drowning in in the aquatic environment than any other state. If you look at the fact that we also have year round access into our ocean, the water temperature allows people to go into the ocean uh on Christmas Day and New Year's Day, where in California, it would be unthinkable because the water's too cold. If you if you look at other things, uh there are reasons for that rate.

[00:39:23] Randall Roth: So it doesn't mean that that here in Hawaii we're not doing as good a job as I don't think so.

[00:39:28] Mike: Mike, a brief response from you and then I have to move on.

[00:39:31] Mike: Well, just a couple of things. You know, I think when you look at the sheer numbers of people who use the ocean in California during those peak times, what Ralph said was right about there there are are temperature differences and and and condition differences in that way, but if you look the the millions of people who use the ocean in California and and I I talked to a a lifeguard lieutenant in California and he said that as people in California have the the same casualty rate that we have here in Hawaii, that people in Los Angeles and California would be howling. They'd be so upset. So, we we're we're accepting a a lower standard of of safety here.

[00:40:08] Randall Roth: Does that argue in favor of immunity? I mean right now, California has immunity and we don't, and Mike is saying it's safer in California than here. I I'm not sure what it means.

[00:40:19] Ralph Goto: I think it's interesting to note that that California does have uh natural condition immunity statute and as part of their government code. Now, whether or not that has any effect on the rate, I I don't know if we can we can say that. However, we do know that uh that the standard that for instance LA County and Southern California set in in lifeguard is uh is something that we've looked at and and try to emulate.

[00:40:40] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob Toyofuku.

[00:40:41] Bob Toyofuku: In a one quick comment on that, uh when you compare California and Hawaii, it's very difficult and when you talk to the experts in the area and and Ralph is one, um certain people will say that a three foot wave uh here in Hawaii, say Sandy Beach, is equal to a six foot wave the force of a six foot wave in California. So you really dealing to a certain extent with different conditions and that has an impact on the amount of accidents and the severity.

[00:41:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, thanks for your comments. Um want to remind listeners that this is Pop radio. We're talking about uh beach liability and the possibility of county immunity. Our guests in the studio are Hazel Bay, the acting associate Dean at the University of Hawaii School of Law where she graduated first in her class a few years back. She also has a Masters of social work and a PhD in American studies. She worked for the county for several years. Bob Toyofuku who's a lobbyist for the Hawaii Trial Lawyers Association, he has a law degree from Boston and another law degree from New York University and he's been very active in continuing legal education for some years. Ralph Goto who is the water safety administrator for the City and County of Honolulu has a degree in philosophy from the University of Hawaii and has been the author of a number of award-winning innovations involving signage, uh jet ski rescues, big surf rescues, uh videotapes uh that the airlines aren't too interested in showing and we can talk some more about that in just a bit. We have a a few open lines. If anyone would like to call and ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 9558821. Well, this was a hot topic last year in the legislature and maybe it will be a hot topic in the coming legislative session. There are two judiciary committees in the Senate, Ray Grolti is the chair of that committee and um my guests can differ if if this is an oversimplification, but I think many people see Ray as being a little bit more sympathetic to Bob Toyofuku's position on this issue. On the house side, we have Terry Tom, who is the chair of the judiciary committee, and again it's perhaps an oversimplification, but some people that I've talked to at least see Terry as being more sympathetic to to Hazel's side of of this issue. Ray Grolti is on an airplane right now and isn't available to uh to talk to us about uh what perhaps will will be happening during the let next legislative session. But Terry Tom is with us on phone. Terry, are you there?

[00:43:09] Terry Tom: I'm on a boat.

[00:43:13] Randall Roth: And and I also want to mention that uh and I don't know if you're the the Frank Sinatra or Bob Dylan or just uh what analogy to draw here.

[00:43:20] Terry Tom: They call me Stevie Wonder.

[00:43:22] Randall Roth: Stevie Wonder, okay. Well, I think it's Wednesday and Saturday night.

[00:43:25] Terry Tom: Wednesday and Saturday at the Paradise Lounge. That's the only time when we make people happy all of the time.

[00:43:31] Randall Roth: Well, I'm I'm going to go down there soon because I've heard that it is really, really good.

[00:43:36] Terry Tom: Well, I'm pretty good, right? I'm pretty good.

[00:43:38] Randall Roth: Well, take take your musician's hat off and put on your legislator's hat and tell us what you think of everything you've been listening to and and how it relates to what you expect to happen during the next legislative session.

[00:43:50] Terry Tom: Okay. First of all, I want to really commend both um Hazel Bay and Bob Toyofuku um and Mr. Goto. But I I've worked closely with both Bob and Hazel and they're really great advocates. They're they know their subjects and they really do care and so you it's as usual you've got a great show, Randy. Um last year, we introduced a bill from the house side which we felt um would resolve many of the concerns expressed by both people here today and that is to distinguish between man-made conditions versus natural conditions of the water. And basically that means that if the conditions that cause the injuries were man-made um conditions created by the counties or the state that then there will not be any limitation in terms of suits by the uh of injured victim. If the conditions were natural kind of conditions in the ocean and there are many, um that at that point then uh absent any uh negligence um from other um parties, that the natural conditions type suits would wouldn't would be immune from liability for the counties or the state. We felt that this was a real good compromise uh when you really consider that the counties have hundreds of hundreds of miles of ocean um shoreline to control and they cannot be all of the places all of the time and in looking at tourists and residents alike, we want to make sure that they continue to use common sense when necessary uh in our oceans and I don't think there should be a distinguishing um between residents and tourists.

[00:45:30] Randall Roth: Terry, do you think that during this coming session, a bill along the lines of what you just described will will be introduced? And and if so, what do you think uh will happen to it this year? Anything different than than what happened last year which was that it it didn't get enacted.

[00:45:45] Terry Tom: Well, I think like in any legislation of importance like this, yes, I will be introducing another bill like this. And I am open from both Bob and Hazel for anything that would um amend the bill to make it even better because I think we have a a really a responsibility to all people. But I I hope that those who favor such a bill and those who don't favor such a bill will find it necessary and compelling enough to come to the legislature to come to us, to talk to us and to tell us how they feel, whether it's in private or at the public information uh public hearings. It's really important that we have people involvement. And that's the real main uh thrust of what I wanted to say because you have bills but it really impacts on you and me and everyone around us. So, the important thing is for people to come out.

[00:46:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Terry, thanks a lot. We really appreciate your input.

[00:46:37] Terry Tom: Great. Thank you, Randy.

[00:46:39] Randall Roth: Thank you. Bob Toyofuku, any reaction to that?

[00:46:41] Bob Toyofuku: Uh, thanks, uh uh Randy. Terry, I'll come down and watch you play, too. Um, just a couple quick comments. Uh, I think that you mentioned, Randy, uh Senator Grolti's um whether he favors more our side. I just want to make it clear, my understanding, he does not uh um take the side necessarily of the trial lawyer. I think that he has said that he has great concern about giving absolute immunity to government uh to or to any party and he feels that there should be some duty uh to warn. The second thing that I just wanted to mention, um I do agree with Ralph Goto that there's the lifeguard should not be removed from any beach. Uh I think that they're the first line of defense. It has been testified at the legislature that they're the first line of defense and we also support any kind of preventative measures.

[00:47:35] Randall Roth: Okay. We're going to get a brief comment from Hazel Bay, and then I've got every line with somebody on it, and we're going to move through those calls quickly. Hazel?

[00:47:42] Hazel Beh: I think that both Senator Grolti and Representative Tom, um acknowledged that beach safety was the primary focus of their legislative efforts. So, I wanted to make clear that that both of them had legitimate concerns, it's just a matter of how they were going to handle it.

[00:47:58] Randall Roth: That's it's an interesting topic because you can have people who'd agree totally that we want beach safety, and yet disagree as to how to get it.

[00:48:06] Hazel Beh: The collision courses that uh your caller Mark before suggested that maybe beaches should be closed. Um the bottom line is we just can't have our cake and eat it, too. Should toilet bowl be closed, for example? And hiking trails. And we can go on and on. It's it's really a legislative issue, and I applaud the legislature for trying to tackle it.

[00:48:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some folks who've been waiting patiently on the line. Uh let me ask them to to just ask a question or make a brief comment. First, David in uh Kihei. Good morning, David.

[00:48:38] David: Um well, first things first, what I would really like to see is all of the greedy tort lawyers shot. But since that isn't likely to happen, I do have a few other ideas. First of all, there should be no liability at the county level, and I think that the state should also say we are not liable. However, since this is uncompassionate, I think that maybe something like the airline system could apply, that in case of an accident there could be an out-of-pocket payment of 50 thou or 75 thou, and insurance should be available if people wish to cover themselves beyond that.

[00:49:12] Randall Roth: Okay. David, thank you. We appreciate your call. Let's move to Janice on Maui. Good morning, Janice.

[00:49:18] Janice: Good morning.

[00:49:20] Randall Roth: Do you have a question or a brief comment for our guests?

[00:49:21] Janice: Well, I was really happy to hear uh Mr. Terence Tom was on just ahead of me. Uh he echoed quite a few comments I wanted to share with the public. Uh there was a bill introduced last year, and in previous years, uh Senate bill 865 is still alive although it has some inequities. And I've heard a lot of comment today on adequate warning and we shouldn't worry if there's uh signage, blah blah blah. But what everyone needs to realize is that the state of Hawaii still doesn't have a uniform system of warning. And even if we did, it still wouldn't prevent liability uh or lawsuits happening from those who say, I can't read this sign, I don't speak English. Okay. So putting that aside, uh I think that the it's this is the moment in time when the public needs to stand forward and said, you know, you're right. We want the beaches safe. Uh there's some constructive comments that have been made here regarding perhaps tapes on airlines, etc. But the bottom line, I believe Mayor Lingle is right on target. There are certain situations in life when nobody's to blame and I think the only way we as taxpayers can protect ourselves is we have got to be vocal. We've got to follow Mr. Tom's advice. We need to be present in our legislature, lobby. Personal written letters are key.

[00:50:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Janice, I really appreciate your your comment and and I I'd like to hear more but I've got uh six people waiting on on my sixth lines. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you, Janice. Sonia from Honolulu. Good morning, Sonia.

[00:50:49] Sonia: Hi. Um my comment or question is sort of related to the last two people uh's comments and I was thinking that, you know, as people we're moving to the point where we always want to hold someone else accountable for our behavior. Uh like someone sues McDonald's because the coffee that they picked up at the driveway spilled and scalded their skin or someone else sues a manufacturer when the cellophane wrapper of a product asphyxiates their child who's playing with it. And it seems like beaches and hiking trails are no different. So is this a phenomena that is, you know, making someone else always accountable for your behavior created by attorneys? I mean, no offense to lawyers and attorneys, I mean they're great people, but Well, it's a fair it's a fair question. Let me get a response to that from from Hazel Bay.

[00:51:36] Randall Roth: Thank you, Sonia. Hazel.

[00:51:40] Hazel Beh: Well, I think Bob and I would agree that the tort system generally works because we don't expect people to um exercise an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth on the street. And so I do think that the tort system does have a place to make sure that wrongs are redressed. But on the other hand, especially with government money, taxpayer money, I do think that there needs to be sensible limits and the beach is one of those areas.

[00:52:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh we have a caller from Punalulu, Farida. Good morning, Farida.

[00:52:10] Farida: Good morning. Uh I just have some comments. You know, uh our parents and our grandparents many, many years ago, nobody in their right mind went swimming at Sandy Beach, Sunset Beach, Waimea Bay, um Makapuu, um Makaha, you can you name it, unless you were some kind of uh hotshot or expert. Nobody went swimming there. It, but you cannot hold the state responsible for people's foolhardiness and and and their their uh unwillingness to to look at the red flag. The red flag's up and it's a storm going on and they're still out there playing in the surf. Okay. Only Malahines, you understand. No, no locals are anywhere near the water. Um I think um maybe not only in the airlines, you know, on on the plane, right, they're with the with the all the promotional photos and and shots they have uh uh warning stories, but also maybe in each hotel. Okay. Really actually have a a kind of like a required, almost required. You check into this hotel, you also have to either read this or you have to watch this

[00:53:25] Randall Roth: Farida, those are are are very interesting comments. Let me get a quick reaction from uh Ralph Goto and Bob Toyofuku, and then I I just have to move on because we're running out of time. Thank you for your call.

[00:53:36] Ralph Goto: Ralph Goto, those are some good thoughts. What do you think?

[00:53:39] Ralph Goto: We agree with uh the concept of getting as much safety information to our visitors as possible, whether it be through video, uh presentations on the plane, or whether it be in the hotel room, or whether it be directly through employees. I think it raises an interesting point and if um Mr. Fried also uh made some comment to it that uh the the luring of people or using the beaches here uh in Hawaii to get tourists to come here, I think is is is uh something that we all we all kind of agree on. Uh and and the comments about it's not a uh a a state responsibility or it's not HB's responsibility, I think the point that that we're all here today to discuss is that a lot of the onus is falling on the counties. And and we understand that it is once someone goes into the water technically they are under state jurisdiction. Uh the the whole issue of of advertising and marketing is an HNB issue. Uh yet the counties are the ones that are taking the brunt of these actions.

[00:54:40] Randall Roth: I see. So so we've kind of got a a mismatch of of sorts.

[00:54:45] Bob Toyofuku: Okay, Bob Toyofuku.

[00:54:46] Bob Toyofuku: Uh Randy, just a quick comment on what Farida said. Um, there's sometimes a misconception that people who are injured are always looking for somebody to uh pay them and hold them at fault. You know, I don't think people are always saying that we want to hold the state responsible. I think the tension here and the issue is the right of an individual to access the justice system. And our point is absolute immunity given to anybody, the counties or the state will cut that off. Second point, real quickly, Farida made a good point. I think uh there's certain hotels now. I know the Hapuna Beach uh Prince Hotel on the Big Island uh uses Ralph Goto's uh pictogram signs uh when you check in. They give you a little card showing you the dangers and what the signs mean.

[00:55:32] Randall Roth: Okay. And you know, and I don't want to embarrass you Ralph, but as I talk to people getting ready for this show, uh over and over I was told that that you and your department have come up with a a number of innovative programs that have been picked up around the world uh from from the different signs that you've developed to videos to uh jet ski rescues. Um uh again, if if what I've been hearing is accurate, you guys have been doing a much better job than I was aware of.

[00:55:56] Ralph Goto: Well, we have tried to once again stay proactive in our efforts to prevent these things from happening, and we've looked at um a number of strategies including the videos and the signs. But you know, the bottom line is Randy, that that these things are still occurring. Right. And and uh they occur with with uh some frequency.

[00:56:15] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, as soon as somebody gets off the line, somebody else gets on, and we're down to eight minutes. So we're going to adjust move as quickly as we possibly can. Let's go to Skip in Makiki. Good morning, Skip.

[00:56:24] Skip: Morning Randy. Uh just a couple of things, I figured if I waited long enough everybody would say what was pretty much on my mind. But uh someone had said earlier, I think it was someone on your panel, um that compromise would probably be the best solution. Uh I very strongly feel that people do have a responsibility for their own safety. And I don't think the entire brunt of this should be put on city and county or state. Uh anyone who's lived here long enough knows that uh HPD is one of the finest, our firefighters are some of the best, and certainly our lifeguard system is

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: Peerless, pretty much. I think what needs to be done with regard to uh, HP or excuse me, HVB, Hawaii Visitors Bureau is doing a better job abroad meaning around the world to our visitors and uh, to the mainland, of telling the reality of what Hawaii is. Not denigrating it as a place to come and visit and have good fun, but really is being as honest as possible before those other countries do it.

[00:57:25] Randall Roth: Yeah, and that keeps coming up and and I know Ralph has a video that he's tried to get the airlines to show as as folks are on their way over here, and I guess one of the airlines did for a while. Um but there's so many people in Hawaii who spend so much time and energy and money trying to get people to come to Hawaii, I guess there's a lot of resistance to anything that that might scare them off.

[00:57:46] Ralph Goto: Well, I don't think it would scare them off as long as it's a reasonably, well thought out educational process. And I know that people around the world would, would very much appreciate hearing that.

[00:57:55] Randall Roth: Ralph is nodding that he uh he agrees with that. Uh I I have to move on. Thank you, Skip. We really appreciate your call.

[00:58:02] Brian: Let's go to Brian on Maui. Good morning, Brian. Morning, Randy. Thanks for having this forum here. Sure. Really important and uh, uh, Mr. Goto and uh, Hazel Bay. Um, we uh, have a small ad hoc group over here. We lobbied intensely for this legislation last year and I hope the public listening to this, uh will come out or write letters, do whatever is necessary. Um, beaches and trails should not uh be subject to lawsuits, uh they should be immune from uh lawsuits uh caused by natural conditions. Uh, I just want to support all of the fine testimony I've heard this morning, uh along these lines, in favor of Senate uh bill 865, which didn't make it past uh Ray Gralfy's committee.

[00:58:53] Randall Roth: Okay, Brian. I've I've got to move on. Do you have anything quickly to add?

[00:58:56] Brian: No, that's all. I just want to thank you for all the good work here, and I hope this uh legislation passes this year.

[00:59:02] Randall Roth: Okay, great. And I appreciate your hard work on the issue. Regardless of which side you're on, uh in a democracy, people either get interested in this stuff or or we just stumble in the wrong direction. Let's go to Rick in Honolulu. Good morning, Rick.

[00:59:14] Rick: Yeah, good morning. Um I think there's really two ways to immunize um this situation. One is to of course exempt the counties. But the other, which is um I think more creative, is to improve the system to a point where there in fact is no negligence. And um I think the city and county of Honolulu, the lifeguard system there, while not perfect, is um is really good. It's an excellent system. And in fact, there're not many law cases that succeed against them. So that's the point. But my question is this, why can't the other counties develop a system just as good as the um city and county of Honolulu.

[00:59:52] Randall Roth: Okay, let's get a reaction to that first from Hazel Bay.

[00:59:55] Hazel Beh: Well, I think that um it's an evolving situation. I think that um Ralph can tell you more the history, but it started out with the City and County not even having any lifeguards, what 20, 30 years ago. And so the state of the art is constantly improving. And we do the neighbor islands also work with Ralph and we are trying to make a uniform. Somebody brought up a uniform state signage system. And there are movements in that direction, but first you have to think of the good ideas. And people like Ralph have really helped in that regard.

[01:00:26] Ralph Goto: I think the the issue of the neighbor Island lifeguard services are uh coming up to the level of Honolulu's if you will. Uh is is really a matter of economic reality. Uh the the the neighbor Island tax base just um isn't great enough to support one and and perhaps suggests the a need for state involvement in the whole issue of water safety for the for the state.

[01:00:48] Bob Toyofuku: Real quickly, I thought Rick's comment was very good. Um and one of our points is that the tort system or the legal system help promotes good ideas. I think when people are somewhat concerned about liability, they come up with better ideas and methods to prevent accidents and increase uh safety.

[01:01:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got a couple more callers and just a couple minutes left. Let's go to D. Miller in Honolulu. Good morning.

[01:01:14] D. Miller: Good morning. How are you? Just fine. Um just real quickly, I'll try to be focused and to the point here. Um for one, I don't see that uh litigation has been a good instrument of public policy on one hand. And on the other hand, uh with enormous amount of respect for excuse me, for Ralph Goto and his work, uh I I I think we still need um uh a great deal of water safety here in Hawaii where we have dangerous waters and I haven't heard that Ralph Gotto has had a chance this morning to say, gee, what else would I like to have because I I feel sometimes he's a little bit frustrated with the situation and he would like to do more, but his hands are sometimes a little bit uh tied due to uh litigation constraints, funding. I'll I'll I'll pass that question on in just a moment. Um uh any anything else real briefly that you want to add because we just have a couple seconds. Okay, uh Ralph, real quickly. We don't have much time. What do you think?

[01:02:17] Ralph Goto: I think we can sum it up um pretty quickly. If if the lifeguard systems are given the resources that they need to do what the public has come to expect from them, uh including junior lifeguard programs and including educational programs, uh including allowing us to continue our efforts with the jet ski rescue uh vehicles and the uh the innovative things we've been doing. If we have the resources, given the resources, uh I think we could proceed uh towards this goal.

[01:03:05] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you Charlie. I That's that's the end of our time. We're out of time. I want to thank our guests in the studio. We've had Hazel Bay, Bob Toyofuku, and Ralph Goto on the mail or on the phone by prior arrangement. We had Mayor Stephen Yamashiro of the Big Island, Mayor Linda Crocket Lingle from Maui. We had lawyers Rick Fried and Ken Robbins. We had legislator Terry Tom. Uh our director of operations is Jeff Alardi, our producer is Susie Roth. I think I've got three seconds left so I'm just going to say Aloha.