Women and Jobs in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-01-01
Guests: Coralie Chun Matayoshi (attorney; Executive Director, Hawaii State Bar Association); Cori Lau (attorney; president, Hawaii Women Lawyers; Executive Director, Hawaii Institute for Continuing Legal Education)
Duration: 0:27:02

[00:00:01] Randall Roth: Good morning. I'm Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is women and jobs in Hawaii. With me to discuss it are Corey Lau and Coralee Chan Matioshi. Corey is president of Hawaii Women Lawyers and Coralee is executive director of the Hawaii State Bar Association. Coralee, do women in Hawaii have equal access to jobs?

[00:00:24] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, Randy, if you're talking about low-paying jobs, women have got the market pretty much covered. Women in Hawaii receive only 65 cents for every dollar the average man earns and this is about the same as nationwide, the fact that in the half century between 1930 and 1980, although the number of women in the workforce tripled, the average female earnings nationally never got higher than 59% of average male earnings.

[00:00:52] Randall Roth: So, women don't make as much in Hawaii?

[00:00:54] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: No, they don't, even with the kind of comparable jobs, they don't make enough. For instance, why does a maid or a house cleaner at a hotel make far less than a janitor, a male janitor at a school?

[00:01:10] Randall Roth: So even if the work is comparable, women make less and women don't have as many of the higher-paying jobs.

[00:01:17] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Right. Why? Well, there's a lot of reasons, I think that the workplace just isn't set up for women in the first place. Even just the simple thing about having the the hours 8 to 5, and it's made for a man to get up in the morning, leave without taking the children to school or packing home lunch, coming home just at the time about 5 o'clock when dinner should be on the table, and women are supposed to be doing all of that.

[00:01:47] Randall Roth: Where is that written that women are supposed to be doing all of that?

[00:01:51] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I think it's written in in society's mind, don't you think, Corey?

[00:01:54] Cori Lau: Well, I think that from a historical perspective, that women have traditionally done more of the household work and have cared for children more than men. And in terms of professional jobs, men have had far greater opportunities to train into these jobs, either from following in their father's footsteps, or being members of certain professional organizations, as other men in these positions.

[00:02:27] Randall Roth: Do do women have a nurturing instinct that men lack? Is that part of the fact that women have added responsibilities at home or is it just historical?

[00:02:40] Cori Lau: Well, I think it's it's debatable, of course, I know men who are terrific nurturers. However, it seems that despite that, women just seem to shoulder more of the burden for family care.

[00:02:54] Randall Roth: Are are men and women, when it comes to their ability to do things, are they pretty much alike, Coralee, or do do men tend to do some things better and women tend to do other things better?

[00:03:06] Cori Lau: I think that men do some things better, and women do some things better, but that women are expected to do a lot more.

[00:03:14] Randall Roth: I see. So that, even if men and women are of different ability when it comes to different jobs, you don't think that begins to explain the discrimination that you're seeing in the workplace in Hawaii.

[00:03:24] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: That's correct, Randy.

[00:03:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Corey, what about the higher echelons, the jobs that pay very, very well, CEOs of companies, or partners in law firms, or high-level government positions? How are women doing in Hawaii these days?

[00:03:42] Cori Lau: Well, I don't think they're doing so well. I do know that there's a national statistic where about 92% of directors in America's largest companies are males and 90% are white males over the age of 50. So you know that shows you that there's that great discrepancy.

[00:04:02] Randall Roth: Is that changing?

[00:04:04] Cori Lau: I believe it's changing. What they say is that, for the legal profession, that women are entering partnerships at the rate of about 1% more per year. So by the year 2000, there will be about 20% women partners.

[00:04:21] Randall Roth: Coralee, I know the Hawaii State Bar Association has conducted a survey to try to determine how women are doing in the legal community. What did you come up with?

[00:04:31] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, in 1991, the Hawaii State Bar Association did a survey included in that was job satisfaction and other factors. But we did measure the demographics and it looked like, it we found that the average woman in Hawaii makes 58% less than the average male. And of course, this could be the factors could contribute such as the years of practice or the age or the position. But after we held all of those factors constant that would explain the differences rationally, we found that women just make 20% less than men just because they're women. And a lot of this studies have shown that 23% to 56% of the wage gap is attributable to discrimination.

[00:05:19] Randall Roth: Is there a law against that, if I've got a job opening and I need two people, let's say to fill this task that needs to be done, one's a man, one's a woman, is there something illegal about my paying the man 20% more than the woman?

[00:05:35] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, yes, there is, but it's just kind of pretty difficult to prove. That they'll fall back on the old well, she's not educated enough or whatever, you can't blatantly do that, but it happens.

[00:05:48] Randall Roth: Corey, just generally, to what extent does the law protect women from discrimination, not just pay discrimination, but any kind of discrimination or harassment in the workplace?

[00:06:00] Cori Lau: Well, there are equal pay laws, there's the Civil Rights Act, there are laws against sexual harassment in the workplace.

[00:06:08] Randall Roth: Are these laws working?

[00:06:10] Cori Lau: To some extent, I think that sexual harassment has become a lot more prominent in the news in recent years, a lot of it stemming from Anita Hill and the hearings that Thomas Clarence Thomas went through for the Supreme Court.

[00:06:28] Randall Roth: Do you think that those hearings have changed the way men and women look at these issues?

[00:06:33] Cori Lau: I think that a lot of focus or a lot of the nation's consciousness became raised because of the Anita Hill testimony. The fact that there were no women on the Senate Judiciary Committee and therefore those members did not have a woman's perspective of what it's like to be in the workplace, to experience certain comments and to have to undergo treatment that men don't usually have to go through.

[00:07:05] Randall Roth: When you say woman's perspective, is it unique because that person is a woman or is it because of the experiences that women tend to share?

[00:07:17] Cori Lau: Well, both actually. I think that women have a unique perspective, different, a perspective that's different from men on a lot of different things, on their jobs, their families and everyday life.

[00:07:30] Randall Roth: How excited are you that in the last year or so, we've had a woman appointed to the Hawaii State Supreme Court and a woman appointed to the US Supreme Court? Is that a real big deal, is that important, and if so, why, Corey?

[00:07:44] Cori Lau: I think it's it's very, very important, it's kind of a milestone for a woman to be sitting on the Hawaii Supreme Court. There has not been a woman serving on that court for 25 years and just the fact that we have two US Supreme Court justices is just terrific.

[00:08:05] Randall Roth: Corey Lee, do you see this as tokenism or do you think that this is a sign of more things to come, that there will be more than just one woman on the Hawaii Supreme Court before too many years go by?

[00:08:17] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I know at the confirmation hearings, somebody said something like that there should be five women, and I don't disagree with that. I don't think that it's tokenism. I think that it was time though, that to show that that women, that there are women candidates. And if they hadn't picked a woman this time, it would have been a real slap in the face. There is just not one woman that is as qualified as a man in this day and age and I don't think that they can shut their eyes anymore to that.

[00:08:46] Randall Roth: Is your goal five out of five?

[00:08:48] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: It would be a good start.

[00:08:50] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Corey Lau, president of Hawaii Women Lawyers and Coralee Chan Matioshi, executive director of the Hawaii State Bar Association. What about this case that's been in the newspapers the last week or so, the Harris case? Corey, can you tell us just a little bit without getting into any of the details, can you tell us a bit about what that case is all about?

[00:09:15] Cori Lau: Well, apparently, a woman who worked for a company called Forklift Systems out of Nashville, Tennessee, brought suit against her employer for sexual harassment. The case went through a federal magistrate, first of all, it went to a federal magistrate who denied the claim. There had been a lot of comments made in the workplace by this woman's employer, very very off-color type jokes and comments made such as men asking a woman to fish something out of his pocket. They asked women to get coffee for the group when the men were never asked.

[00:10:03] Cori Lau: Apparently this woman, Ms. Harris was asked or was told by her employer that he could, he would negotiate her raise at the Holiday Inn, instances like that.

[00:10:14] Randall Roth: Corey, I doubt that many listeners can, can personally relate to two of those three, but one of the instances you mentioned, asking the woman to get the coffee when the men in the meeting weren't expected to to fetch coffee, that's probably not that unusual. Is that a form of discrimination, is that sexual harassment?

[00:10:35] Cori Lau: I wouldn't consider that sexual harassment in and of itself and it is very pervasive that women end up getting the coffee. I think that if it's part of a pattern where the woman who is of equal stature or job status as the other employees is constantly asked to do things like demeaning tasks like getting coffee, then it could amount to sexual harassment.

[00:11:03] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: That that happened to me at the Justice Department when I first became a trial attorney and I guess everybody looked around the room and it was a room full of attorneys, no secretaries to be found and they just kind of assumed that we would get the coffee.

[00:11:17] Randall Roth: We we being the women.

[00:11:18] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Yes.

[00:11:20] Randall Roth: Number one, how did you feel and number two, do you think that that could be actionable, that that could result in some liability on the part of an employer?

[00:11:30] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Actually, these weren't employers, they were opposing counsel. And they were gray-haired guys from New York and Washington DC and being the lowest man on the totem pole and right out of law school, we jumped up and got the coffee without any any other word.

[00:11:43] Randall Roth: But is, is that even close to being some form of discrimination, and when I say discrimination, I mean under the law?

[00:11:52] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Not not alone. If it was coupled with remarks like, well, you're a woman, go get it, you know, honey or something like that, I think that might

[00:12:08] Randall Roth: So, in other words, she may have been talking about having been asked to get coffee just because of the cumulative nature of all of this.

[00:12:15] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I think so.

[00:12:16] Randall Roth: Corey, how did the, the judge that initially took all this evidence into account, how did he look at at these accusations that she was making?

[00:12:24] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, I think that he he determined that the comments were vulgar and the person making them might have been a vulgar person, but it didn't rise to the level of creating a hostile work environment, one that would change the conditions of this woman's employment. So she appealed.

[00:12:42] Randall Roth: Do you think a woman judge would have reacted the same way, do you think that the way the case was initially decided is a reflection of the maleness, if you will, of our judiciary?

[00:12:55] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: It could be. It's really hard to say without examining the record. It could be that this that the judge had nothing to, no experience to draw from in terms of how he looked at what was going on. And actually, I read a little bit about Sandra Day O'Connor asking whether they should apply the reasonable woman standard, which shows that there is a difference between how a woman should react and and another person.

[00:13:23] Randall Roth: Tell us a little bit about how a reasonable woman might have a different standard than a reasonable man.

[00:13:29] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I think that women, on the whole, I mean everyone has had some kind of remark against them and they're more sensitive, they can relate to how they felt when that happened, whereas men would just brush it off.

[00:13:47] Randall Roth: In fact, didn't that happen when the arguments were being made in front of the Supreme Court that one of the things that the plaintiff was complaining of was that she had been told, oh, you're a woman, what do you know, and didn't Justice Ginsburg bring that out and Justice Scalia say something about that, Corey?

[00:14:03] Cori Lau: Well, from what I understand, Justice Ginsburg said that I guess we should tell the listeners who don't realize Justice Ginsburg is a woman.

[00:14:11] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Yes, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is the newest appointee to the US Supreme Court. She was asked or she was commenting on on the statement that was made, you're a woman, what do you know. And she had either asked the question, has anybody heard that comment made to a man, you're a man, what do you know. And she expressed her unfamiliarity with hearing that and Justice Scalia said, well, obviously you haven't been to my household.

[00:14:39] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Corey Lau, president of Hawaii Women Lawyers and Coralee Chan Matioshi, executive director of the Hawaii State Bar Association. Corey, you're president of Hawaii Women Lawyers. Is there an organization called Hawaii Men's Lawyers?

[00:14:57] Cori Lau: No, there isn't, but there are men who are members of Hawaii Women Lawyers.

[00:15:02] Randall Roth: You think it's perfectly appropriate for women to have an organization that's focused on, I guess, the not plight, but the situation of women lawyers.

[00:15:13] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Plight might be the best word sometimes. Actually, Hawaii, I think that it is very appropriate for women who are who are in a profession that has been traditionally male dominated, I think it's really appropriate that they seek out support systems and a support network of other women who are experiencing some of the same things that they are in, you know, trying to do the best job and overcome difficulties.

[00:15:43] Randall Roth: Coralee, as executive director of the Bar Association, do you feel that women lawyers have special challenges and do organizations like Hawaii Women Lawyers make a difference?

[00:15:53] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Oh, yes, they really do. Otherwise, people just would be, you know, really intimidated about going against their own employer and it just heightens the awareness that women do, I mean, it's not imagined, it's not me that I can't hack it or whatever, it is a reality that women, it is much more difficult to practice law and be a serious worker if you're a woman.

[00:16:16] Randall Roth: Are women in other professions or in other lines of work forming support groups like this, Coralee?

[00:16:22] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I'm sure that they do in the business world and and other places.

[00:16:28] Randall Roth: And and you feel that that's important.

[00:16:30] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: I think so.

[00:16:32] Randall Roth: What about comparable worth? Coralee, in in your chapter in the first volume of the Price of Paradise, you made a few comments about comparable worth, and I know Corey, you've you've used the expression pink ghetto before and I think the two are somehow related. Could you explain generally what comparable worth is all about?

[00:16:50] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, actually, um, Well, I guess I can sort of interject here, it's Comparable worth is a concept that has been used in the past, um, it's gone through, you know, levels of favor and disfavor, but um, what it refers to is the ability to value a certain kind of job based on, um, factors of the job and compare it against another kind of work in a different line altogether and sort of weigh the value of the work and therefore determine pay scales and benefits and things like that.

[00:17:26] Randall Roth: How would this work? Would the government tell somebody who's who's employing mostly women that the pay has to be more because the work that they're doing is comparable to say a truck driver's position, which is normally held by a man? Does government have to dictate the amount that would be paid?

[00:17:47] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Well, right now there's no law, um, that requires anybody to apply comparable worth doctrines to, um, to their the different jobs in their workforce. But um, I think that wise employers will do well to evaluate the types of jobs in their in their system and determine whether they are, um, discriminating, quote unquote, against, um, women who are in lower-paying jobs, but who do job of equal merit to men.

[00:18:18] Randall Roth: So a number of positions that have traditionally been held by women, you feel that the pay tends to be low because they've traditionally been held by women?

[00:18:29] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Or is that a chicken and egg situation? Yeah, it is sort of a chicken and egg situation.

[00:18:34] Randall Roth: What about government in in Hawaii? Do women get a fair shake when it comes to employment by the state and county governments? Any thoughts on that?

[00:18:43] Coralie Chun Matayoshi: Actually, I wanted to go back to I was fishing around for some statistics here that I had, um, mentioned in my chapter, that in 1986, a lot of the women groups and community groups got together and, um, asked the legislature legislature to authorize a pay equity study of public employment.

[00:19:00] Speaker 1: And um through Arthur Anderson, um, I me I'm sorry, Arthur Young and Company, the consultants, they did find um differences in the way officials sign assigned wages to jobs filled largely by women, and they got appropriated $850,000 to cover to cover the salary adjustments to rectify these differences in the public arena.

[00:19:22] Randall Roth: Oh, so government in Hawaii has made a stab at this comparable worth thing.

[00:19:26] Speaker 1: Right, it's a stab, but after that, nothing was done.

[00:19:29] Randall Roth: Oh, there was no follow-through.

[00:19:30] Speaker 1: Right. I see. Also, I think if you're looking at some public employment where unions are involved, um, women have the added protection of um, being represented by unions that have evaluated different pay scales and types of jobs and would advocate for a more fair um type of pay.

[00:19:48] Randall Roth: I see. So, in in Hawaii tends to have more or a higher percentage of its workforce that's been unionized. So would that suggest that uh women maybe aren't quite as bad off in Hawaii as elsewhere or or you under the impression that that things aren't any better here than they are anywhere else, Corally?

[00:20:07] Speaker 1: Um, well hard to measure I'm sure. Yeah, it is, but um, one thing that's interesting is that um, the women the center for women in government found that Hawaii women had the nation's lowest participation participation rate in senior state and local government posts, only 13.9%. But um, when it's up to the voters and not the the big bureaucracy of government old boys network, um, the the voters vote a lot of women in to office.

[00:20:37] Randall Roth: Uh interesting. we were last in the nation?

[00:20:40] Speaker 1: Mhm.

[00:20:41] Randall Roth: on appointed positions?

[00:20:43] Speaker 1: Right. In senior level post state and local government. We were last.

[00:20:46] Randall Roth: So when people use the expression old boy network in government in Hawaii that that maybe that's a literal description of what we have?

[00:20:54] Speaker 1: I think so.

[00:20:56] Randall Roth: Maybe maybe young boy too, but old boy is part of that. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Corey Lau, president of Hawaii Women Lawyers and Coralie Chun Matayoshi, executive director of the Hawaii State Bar Association. Corey, um, what do we do about it? If indeed uh it's true and and everybody agrees that that there has been uh unfair treatment of women in the workplace in Hawaii. Uh how does that change?

[00:21:25] Speaker 1: I think that um one one positive step would be for employers um to educate themselves, educate them especially the the people who are doing the hiring, to educate themselves on um creative ways of assessing performance um when they're when they're hiring people for jobs, if they traditionally hire men for certain jobs, um, perhaps they ought to look at whether um, women can bring skills to the job that um that would enhance their performance.

[00:22:01] Speaker 1: Um, the example that's of course closest nearest and dearest to my heart is in the legal profession, um when men are being hired to be litigators, traditionally litigators are valued for being aggressive and uh hard hitting and um uh, very uh assertive in in taking cases to trial, and therefore manly, manly. Therefore, you know, they're they're supposedly valued as a litigator. Women who are in litigation may be more um more maybe stronger on their negotiating skills, maybe um able to better communicate with the client and to assess um needs and to perhaps settle the case short of litigation and that can be a win-win situation.

[00:22:46] Randall Roth: I see. So um uh women and men might approach it differently but either approach can be a a good one?

[00:22:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the employer, and this is this is another this is an argument also for reassessing um the profession overall and that is, you know, if employers traditionally um valued an employee because they put in the billable hours and therefore they build their clients a lot of legal fees, if the the problem can be solved short of litigation and the fees are not as high, the clients will be happy and therefore I would think the the law firm would have a happier client who might refer them more business.

[00:23:21] Randall Roth: So part of it maybe is this performance criteria that we need to measure more than just uh the number of hours spent.

[00:23:27] Speaker 1: Right.

[00:23:28] Randall Roth: Uh what about support systems for women employees as opposed to men, Corally? Um much happening here in terms of uh child care or or anything like that?

[00:23:40] Speaker 1: I think that when um men feel it um uh when it comes home to them that they should be worrying about childcare and everything, things will happen. Um, right now it's just a woman's problem and it's just another baggage that she takes with her into the workplace. And um, I'm for equality for both men and women, um, I think that society should expect um more of men in the home and um and that would free up women to be able to get to to contribute more to the workplace without feeling guilty about all of the things that she's leaving behind at home.

[00:24:19] Randall Roth: So we should tell all the men out there, start uh start working a little bit more at home.

[00:24:24] Speaker 1: Yep. A lot more.

[00:24:25] Randall Roth: Them, not me. I'm doing a great job at home. I'm sure you you all realize. Um, what else can we do, Cory?

[00:24:31] Speaker 1: Well, I guess I I would just push for a more humanistic, holistic approach to um structuring people's workday and not uh employers should not be so demanding as to, you know, uh cause a person to have stress and um chemical dependency and um, you know, problems that would ultimately destroy their ability to perform. I think they should be more humanistic.

[00:24:56] Randall Roth: So now you're not talking so much about treating women in a certain way, you're saying people, all employees ought to be treated better than what often times are treated.

[00:25:04] Speaker 1: Yes.

[00:25:05] Randall Roth: Coralie, any other thoughts on uh how things will change?

[00:25:09] Speaker 1: I think that it'll naturally change because um men will have wives that work and they will be forced to by virtue of their wives um asking them to do more at home.

[00:25:21] Randall Roth: Uh I I'm going to be in trouble if I let that go by. My my wife, who's a homemaker says, homemakers work, they just don't work outside the home.

[00:25:29] Speaker 1: Right. That's true. It is two jobs. Yes.

[00:25:34] Randall Roth: And and here in Hawaii, I assume it's more of a necessity. Uh very high percentage, unusually high percentage of uh women work outside the home because of our high cost of living.

[00:25:43] Speaker 1: Right, rather than out of choice, they work out of necessity.

[00:25:47] Randall Roth: I guess that's the price of paradise. Our guests this week were Corey Lao and Coralie Chun Matayoshi. This show was produced by Jill Center with technical assistance from Rick Stanley. We would like to hear your thoughts about what we've said or not said. Those comments can be sent to me in Care of Hawaii Public Radio, 738 Kahaka Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96814. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[00:26:17] Speaker 2: This program is produced by the Consortium of Price of Paradise Authors in cooperation with Hawaii Public Radio. The Price of Paradise is a best-selling book that has become a must read for every concerned citizen of Hawaii. A sequel, Price of Paradise Volume 2, has just arrived in Oahu bookstores. Please tune in next week when Randal Roth, a special guest, and one of his 65 co-authors from the two Price of Paradise books will take on another question of importance to listeners in Hawaii. Cassette copies of this program are available from Hawaii Public Radio for $10 by calling 955-8821.